Jump points

I still advocate that the CQC made to see if the vortex shockwave can be pulled off should instead be used to set the bar for all ships within the shockwave's zone to make their own CQC.

So if you come in with a CQC roll of 3 plus the crew quality of 4, then all ships in the target zone must roll a CQC of 8+ (greater then the incoming 7) to see if they avoid the attack.
 
Burger said:
BADGERCLAW said:
as for the narn they can get a lot of cheep ship with E-mine is't that the same for cheesy!
No, for reasons already explained by Locutus.

No I never suggested taking 20 blue stars and doing jump point bombs. With all of them maybe a couple in the most I'd probably take would be eight. But to say that this kind of tactic is cheesy is far from the truth.

Let's compare E minds to to jump point, bombs, as seen on the TV show.

Minbar had done a jump point bomb on the show against Earth alliance in the earth/ minbar war.

To pull this off you first need a scout on the board and the ship with advance jump engines. You need to roll a 10 to actually pull it off. Which is a one out of three roll the jump point only has a 90° 2 inch affected area.

E. mine only appear in the final battle of the shadows war. First things first, they are mines. They were not shot out of a ship. They were placed in space, where they thought the enemy would show up and detonated the ones that could affect the enemies fleet.

e-mines can be placed anywhere without the aid of a scout , where most damage can be done. You do not need to roll to see if you've calculated correctly or deviate. has a 3 inch blast radius 360° that can be repeatedly fired throughout the game.

Narn can get 2 raids and a skirmish ships that possess energy minds. I do not believe that this is bad but when narn players fill up most of their fleet with these three ships it takes out the fun of the game.

Energy mines and jump point bombs are what I call the holy Grail of some fleets. It's when some players take it to the extreme would their only tactics are really either one of these. That is unsportsmanlike.

Opening jump points just to do the jump point bomb and not bring the ship on the board is completely unsportsmanlike. I myself would never deploy such tactics.

bc 8)
 
MercyBlowz said:
Actually we see the Narn using energy mines at the Battle of Gorash 7, during the Narn-Centauri war.
There is even the exact line "Fire energy mines!", so I've no doubt about the weapon in use.

I stand correct it. I have not seen an episode for long long time.
Thanks for the hyperlink that shows that.

But I still stand about how I feel when players taken advantage too far in the game And just run with it until You just don't want to play no more.

BC 8)
 
Actually I'd like to get the 1 in 3 off the table...

Isn't there an admiral who helps with CQ checks?

What about in campaign, where higher crew qualities are not uncommon?

Go look at the Narn ships that have E-mines. Most of them do not have the same firepower as other ships their size if you remove the e-mine. Now go look at the ships that CAN jump point bomb. What did they give up to get this extra rarely used weapon?

I would have no issue in the game if the ability to jump point bomb was paid for in some way, but as far as I can tell the weapon is given away for free.

How about this for a rule, in any game in which hyperspace is available and a scout is on the table the player in question may make a CQ check needing a ten. If he succeeds he may freely roll on the refit table for the ship in question. It's hard to do, and can be countered by movement, placement, and target choice. Much more fair than AJP bombing and just as rare. The opponent's ships are good enough to play already you say...who cares...

Ripple
 
BADGERCLAW said:
Minbar had done a jump point bomb on the show against Earth alliance in the earth/ minbar war.

To pull this off you first need a scout on the board and the ship with advance jump engines. You need to roll a 10 to actually pull it off. Which is a one out of three roll the jump point only has a 90° 2 inch affected area.
The rules for JPB are actually nothing like the show.

- In the show, there is no scout "on the table". Just a lone Minbari Flyer.
- The JP bomb can only be performed in a specific pre-determined location, that is why the Flyer had to lure them there.
- It had to be done in an asteroid field so that the EA couldn't simply move out of the way when they detected the JP forming.
- The JP opened and (I believe?) completely destroyed a Nova and a Hyperion, and badly damaged another Hyperion. That is far more damage than in ACTA, or else it is extremely lucky crit rolling!!
- It was only ever performed by the Black Star, the most elite of the elite Minbari crews. If every ship with AJE could do it, why wasn't it much more common in the show?
 
BADGERCLAW said:
E. mine only appear in the final battle of the shadows war.

If you look carefully at the scenes featuring the G'Toc (the Narn Cruiser that survived the War of Retribution) after it fled to B5 and subsequently joined the Army of Light, you can often see an energy mine glowing on the prow. However as MercyBlowz noted, you only ever see them launched in the Battle of Gorash 7.

The mines used in the last battle of the Shadow War were the Gaim mines/bombs (aquired by G'Kar, and used to destroy the Shadow City) which were pre-planted by Johnny "Nuke-'em" Sheridan much like his counter ambush on the Black Star in In the Beginning.
 
Indeed :P

Sheridans Nuke tally to date:

Nuked the Minbari

Nuked the Shadows (twice)

Nuked the Vorlons

Trying to think of other instances of him nuking things but quite surpisingly none jump to mind. Still he certainly picked the three biggest fish to fry ;)
 
It is certainly interesting on how I tapped the nerve with jump points.
: My original idea was to use blue stars to jump behind the narn-line and hit them on their weak side. Some people took this as 20 blue stars, all doing jump point bombs without going through the jump points. But having the ability to do this is something to consider when playing with a player who abuses an advantage by making up a large, if not completely fleet of ships armed with energy bombs.

When I play the narn player last week he destroyed half of my fleet of white stars in the first turn. When someone posted questions about the energy bombs. I responded with, that they are very powerful and I wish they did not have AP with them.
Another person responded on the forum that you always complain about the weapon. And you don't figure out a way to beat it. While I have I am going to use my blue stars to jump behind him and shoot up his ships. And if he is playing especially irritating then yes. I will jump point bomb is fleet. And when he starts complaining on how unfair it is. I am simply going to say "stop complaining and figure out a way to beat it" :twisted:

Now the part about the blue stars not paying for their ability to do a jump point bomb is hogwash. They are small, very little armored ships. With one gun to support itself. The only real asset is the ability to jump. If I was not able to exploit the ability to jump behind my enemy. I wouldn't even bother purchasing them at all. 8)

BC :D
 
Burger said:
The rules for JPB are actually nothing like the show.

- In the show, there is no scout "on the table". Just a lone Minbari Flyer.
- The JP bomb can only be performed in a specific pre-determined location, that is why the Flyer had to lure them there.
- It had to be done in an asteroid field so that the EA couldn't simply move out of the way when they detected the JP forming.
- The JP opened and (I believe?) completely destroyed a Nova and a Hyperion, and badly damaged another Hyperion. That is far more damage than in ACTA, or else it is extremely lucky crit rolling!!
- It was only ever performed by the Black Star, the most elite of the elite Minbari crews. If every ship with AJE could do it, why wasn't it much more common in the show?

I disagree.

The flyer may have been all that the EA fleet saw, but the stealth systems on minbari scout ships are described as being better than those on a Sharlin (which were more than enough to render EA's tracking systesm usless). The flyer may simply have been bait, not a spotter. Alternatively they could have been using a different tactic than the traditional JPB (see below for more description).

As for the pre determied location, i'll give you some credit there, but i believe the CQ check is ment to give it the same feal, even if it's not technically the same. Alternatively, the pre determined location could have been beauce they didn't have a scout on hand. So since they couldn't figure out exactely where to open the vortex to catch their prey they brought their prey to where they were going to open the vortex.

As for the destructivness, yes but that's in the interst of making a fun game rather than a dramatic scene. some ground has to be given in that regard or the tactic will be to dangerous. again, the feal of the effect is preserved by making JPB's very damaging even if theyr aren't as damaging as they should be based on the show.

as for it having to be done in an asteroid field, there isn't any evedence of that. It WAS done in an asteroid field, but corelation does not causality make. certanly it helps if your target can't manuver easily, but i don't believe there's any indication that the asteroid field was essential to the sucess of the tactic.

As for the black star being the only ship to use it, first of all it required advanced technology, so it's possable that only minbari jump engines were advanced enough to be used as such (thus why other races didn't try it), and the balack star might simply have been the first ship to think of it. Alternatively it could have been a common minbari tactic, but was only used occasionally as it was unessesary in the war with earth, and not fesable against raiders or the shadows (the only other forces the minbary would have fought on a regular basis). I'd also like to point out that the Black star had accuired several kills prior to the fatefull engagment we saw and there is no reason to believe that those attacks weren't executed in a similar manner.


And finally, given the overal portrayal of the rangers, and their use of advanced scouts and the precision of a white star's jump engines when attacking earth. I'd say it's very reasonable to assume that when they have the ability to have a white star or an allied scout in place ahead of the main strike force, they would use JPBs. The reason thsi doesn't hapen often is usually the White Star fleet is primarily a peacekeeping force, so outside of the shadow war, they don't engage in very many ofencive campaignes, and when the do (war with earth) they usually aren't trying to eliminate the enemy, just end their ability to fight (and thus the destructive force of a JPB is taken off the table)

as for the bluestar specifically, i have to believe that it's JPB potential was conciderd when it was created. After all it's flavor text itself cites it's jump engines as the only real asset at it's disposal. I'll agree that there is potental for abuse, but i think the actuall reults of such an attempt would be less effective than it's made out to be (unless the offending player has put enough effort into his tactics to deserve some reward even if they are annoying).
 
Bluestars are small? Underarmed? Only useful because they can access jump space?

Let's see...

Hull 4 - average for patrol
Damage - 5...hmm...that does seem small

...but...they have a dodge of 3+...so that means only one shot in three hits...so really that's damage 15...oh wait...adaptive armor....well that's closer to 30 damage (or thirty regular dice fired at them)....um...

Right...tiny for a patrol hull.

Underarmed...

Four dice of AP/Double Damage/Accurate...seems pretty good, only range eight though.

...but...it's on a speed 16 ship with two 90s...so a lunge range of up to 32 inches...or a attack range of 14ish sitting in any arc they want....Nope...not such bad range....we'll skip the defensive advantages of that kind of maneuver...

It's one of the best patrol ships in the game. It's effectively bigger, has the best maneuver profile and is one of the few ships that can ALSO do the hyper jump in attack well.

Are they vulnerable to energy mines...yup...
Has the energy mine trait spread more widely...yup...
Is that a problem...I think so, as it rock paper scissors the game...

but don't ever play off that the bluestar is anything but an excellent patrol ship. Don't like, go play with the Tiraca and tell me how well you do.

Ripple
 
to Stryve

the refit table give a ship extra abilities it doesn't pay for in the pl system.

if you are alright with ship using jump point bombs, you should be alright with me taking extra abilities from the refit table as long as I only have a chance of using them.

Think of it this way, the blue star already justifies its pl based on survivability and amount of firepower it brings to bear.

How...it's dodge of 3+ makes it as big as most ships in it's class, adaptive definitely makes it bigger unless facing e-mines. It's speed and maneuverability means it can bring its firepower to bear earlier than most other ships in it's class at only slightly increased risk. (ie it doesn't get shot for no return like many patrol ships do, and given its ability to lunge to the side often never faces primary weapons.)

So if it already is as good as most patrol ships before the advance crew, flight computer and jump point are taken into account, the advanced jump point abilities have to be effectively free. My point above was that if folks saying it doesn't happen often, and you have to roll well make it okay, would not be considered true if I wanted to have a similar effect on say a tiraca.

Ripple
 
the blue star is also very vunerable to fighters. its hull 4 so will be hit alot. ok is got AA, but get 1 hit and thats 1 d/c and it cant repair the crew.
also it really has to beware any accurate weapon or e-mine type weapon.

yes they are good. but with the range they have combined with their hull they will take a pounding from secondaries and if even only 1 hit gets through then thats 1 crew lost it cant get back.
 
katadder said:
the blue star is also very vunerable to fighters. its hull 4 so will be hit alot. ok is got AA, but get 1 hit and thats 1 d/c and it cant repair the crew.
also it really has to beware any accurate weapon or e-mine type weapon.

yes they are good. but with the range they have combined with their hull they will take a pounding from secondaries and if even only 1 hit gets through then thats 1 crew lost it cant get back.

Sure, they are vulnerable to fighters, but they still can dodge the fire of the fighters. Why is it that the ships that many people are concerned with are indicated as balanced since they are vulnerable to fighters(demos, vorchan). The Bluestar is a great patrol level hull.


Dave
 
not saying it isnt a good hull. but it has its weaknesses. not long ago everyone was saying losing traits was broken because some ships rely on them to be any good. well the bluestar is one of them. fighter vunerability is also a major weakness for any ship.
 
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