emperorpenguin
Mongoose
Lord David the Denied said:
oh you are very, very wrong.......... :wink:
There was an excellent documentary on the History channel about it 3 weeks ago.
Italian girlfriend
- Thread starter Twin-Linked Aldades
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oh you are very, very wrong.......... :wink:
There was an excellent documentary on the History channel about it 3 weeks ago.
emperorpenguin said:
Opinion is very much divided on this matter.
Keith said:
A full battle(s) in the Channel would have cost both sides heavily no doubt about that. It was something the British needed to do though and the Germans less so. The RN was already operating in force in the Channel. Anti-invasion duties were conducted mainly by destroyers and some light cruisers. The concentration of destroyers in this role also let the U-Boats have their first really substanital success against Allied shipping in the autumn then. You did not actually need the Home Fleet turning up.
The German navy and army were not going to move into the Channel, there is more than enough evidence for this. How badly landing forces could be hit was latter shown by the RN against the Germans off Greece. This episode also shows how dangerous aircraft were to ships, but in the summer of 1940 this was something the RN would have had to risk. Also the USN landing craft sunk by E-Boats in the spring of 1944. You are not going to risk slow vulnerable landing craft unless it is absolutely necessary.
As to the Battle of Britain, enough said about that
A popular misconception, the heavy units were based in Scapa and Rosyth, but lighter forces (the ones that would do the real damage) were based in slightly closer places such as Portsmouth, Chatham, Dover, Harwich, Plymouth etc. The Luftwaffe had already demonstrated its effectiveness (or lack of) at that stage in the war against mobile ships at Dunkirk so daylight operations were not impossible and were in fact quite likely. The RN trained very hard for night actions having been caught napping to some extent in 1916 and were the world leaders (along with the IJN in the art of the night action - the result (as shown later during the campaigns around Crete) would have been a bloodbath for the Germans, and thats even before you consider the woeful inadequacy of their amphibious vessels.
emperorpenguin
Mongoose
DM said:
Popular misconception? :wink: I don't think so, I studied Sealion at university, the Royal navy hadn't the forces to prevent a landing, light surface ships and subs weren't enough, we needed the Home Fleet to arrive
emperorpenguin
Mongoose
DM said:
There was a RN report into Sealion after the war, it concluded that we couldn't have stopped them without the home fleet or air power. I know, I read it :wink:
We will have to agree to disagree on this one emperorpenguin.emperorpenguin said:
DM is absolutely spot on this one and I could not agree more. Light forces as in destroyers were more than ample enough and it is on them that defence against the invasion rested. Destroyers were concentrated at Plymouth, Portsmouth and the Nore against the invasion and remained there until the winter. The Home Fleet would provide distant cover against heavy German ships. If it had ultimately been necessary parts of it would have come down to. The fragile nature of most of the German shipping meant that more was not needed. Even the wash from destroyers passing at high speed might have been enough to swamp some barges.
The Luftwaffe at this stage was not adequately trained in anti-shipping work - except in sinking their own that is. This would not have been known by the British, but something else to consider for those interested in counterfactuals.
Depends which report you read. There is actually quite a lot of stuff in NHB (a fascinating place with which I've been lucky enough to work on a number of projects over the years) which says the opposite. This is not entirely surprising I guess; if you trawl hard enough you can probably find many areas of the RN's business where diametrically opposite views and reports exist), and post war anaylsis, taking into account the actual capabilities of the various forces involved, tactics, platform and weapon effectiveness tends to confirm the view that the German effort at sea during any invasion attempt was on a sticky wicket, to say the least.
emperorpenguin
Mongoose
you both mention barges and the unlikely success of a German invasion, Sealion was only a bluff anyway, Germany couldn't realistically mount an invasion, though yes I do disagree with you, the destroyers alone weren't enough, Germany felt they could be brushed aside, it was the arrival of the Home Fleet they feared. They planned to mine the channel heavily on both flanks of their invasion force
There is never one single explanation for such events. If there was life would be a lot easier. Military reports should never be taken at face value. You need to look at the German side to and that tells a very different story.
Incidentally DM would you mind sharing the source regarding the GZ, if you could PM me i would be grateful. I had read something similar recently and as I am working on this right now could do with corroborating this.
Incidentally DM would you mind sharing the source regarding the GZ, if you could PM me i would be grateful. I had read something similar recently and as I am working on this right now could do with corroborating this.
emperorpenguin
Mongoose
Jellicoe said:
I did, it's mentioned in the post above! :wink:
emperorpenguin
Mongoose
wargamers aren't supposed to talk about girlfriends! :lol:
First off it's misleading to assume its the "Germans", there are at least 4 different parties involved all with differing agendas. Don't underestimate the antipathy between the navy and airforce which regarding the England operation was significant. If you go and look at the Kriegsmarine's papers, war diaries, staff correspondence, planning etc.. not just the higher level material you see a slightly different view. The other thing to bare in mind with "German" especially Kriegsmarine planning is that problems which could not be solved tended to be simply glossed over. For one thing there weren't enough mines to go around.
But this is only a game and as you point out Sealion never happened. So let's leave the details at that. To your original assumption. Sure the Luftwaffe could have knocked out the RAF, if it had had enough of the right material, right doctrine and political direction and the RAF been completely hopeless. To many if's though.
A successful German invasion was unlikely, or rather the threat could be dealt with in the summer of 1940. Hence the reason for sending armoured forces to Egypt and attempting expeditions to French possessions.
But this is only a game and as you point out Sealion never happened. So let's leave the details at that. To your original assumption. Sure the Luftwaffe could have knocked out the RAF, if it had had enough of the right material, right doctrine and political direction and the RAF been completely hopeless. To many if's though.
A successful German invasion was unlikely, or rather the threat could be dealt with in the summer of 1940. Hence the reason for sending armoured forces to Egypt and attempting expeditions to French possessions.
emperorpenguin
Mongoose
Jellicoe said:
Don't assume I'm ignorant of the Kriegsmarine, luftwaffe and Wehrmacht's opinions on Sealion, I did study it at uni :wink:
It is fairly well known that had the luftwaffe not switched to city bombing from the airfields that fighter command was at breaking point. Dr Aryck Nusbacher said that had germany attacked the radar stations they'd have won but they ignored them. Sure these are if's but not all of them are big if's.
Twin-Linked Aldades
Mongoose
emperorpenguin said:
They do if the female species influence the wargamer in writing rules in a certain direction. Come on, the French??? Only real thing they ever did was having the Jean Bart, with only one turret operational AND stranded on a bank outside Algiers firing some rounds at an anglo-american invasion force...
Now the glorious Italian fleet, THAT should have been the shining spot of the whole VAS fleet. Heroic, modern, beautiful lines... What did you say Maria? Yes dear, i`m protecting the RM on that forum... no hun, I`m not biased...
