Is The K'kree Navy A Threat - I Think Not! / Virus
- Thread starter Solomani666
- Start date
Agreed.
We've discussed a greater use of robotic systems and drones, massive ships equipped with the largest spinal mounts and heavily armoured with powerful meson screens to compensate for having a singe large habitation area.
But what about ground forces and overall strategy. Would the K'Kree seek to conquer worlds in general to pacify their populations? Or would they seek to make it impossible for the enemy to continue on the world (through bombardment, interdiction?)
The increased life support would make it harder to transport large numbers of troops. But with large herds they would have a large number of troops - what to do with them?
We've discussed a greater use of robotic systems and drones, massive ships equipped with the largest spinal mounts and heavily armoured with powerful meson screens to compensate for having a singe large habitation area.
But what about ground forces and overall strategy. Would the K'Kree seek to conquer worlds in general to pacify their populations? Or would they seek to make it impossible for the enemy to continue on the world (through bombardment, interdiction?)
The increased life support would make it harder to transport large numbers of troops. But with large herds they would have a large number of troops - what to do with them?
New thread started for rubber suited aliens.
http://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/viewtopic.php?f=89&t=73810
http://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/viewtopic.php?f=89&t=73810
I realize that strategy will depend on circumstances (who they are fighting and why)? A dispute over trade rights or harrassment of K'Kree traders will lead to a different military response than, say, the eating of a trade delegation.
But if they seriously go to war, they will have favored strategies based not only on the nature of their ship design and transportaiont capabilities but also on culturally how they approach war.
How tolerant of casualties are they? How impatient would they be? Will they land massive numbers of troops, or try to avoid landing troops until they have bombed the enemy patiently over a few weeks to soften or eliminate opposition?
What would the K'Kree approach to war and preferred strategy mean to the Vargr or the Imperium? Would it make them more or less dangerous?
But if they seriously go to war, they will have favored strategies based not only on the nature of their ship design and transportaiont capabilities but also on culturally how they approach war.
How tolerant of casualties are they? How impatient would they be? Will they land massive numbers of troops, or try to avoid landing troops until they have bombed the enemy patiently over a few weeks to soften or eliminate opposition?
What would the K'Kree approach to war and preferred strategy mean to the Vargr or the Imperium? Would it make them more or less dangerous?
Reynard
Cosmic Mongoose
From sources read in the last thirty years, they have been know to ground even unarmed, non- military into the dirt. They take no prisoners if it means removing a threat. That's why there are no carnivores, feral or sophont, in K'kree space.
I read some CT material looking for them and ground warbots. They prefer doing it themselves. What makes them dangerous is the number of warriors they can field tied to that focused aggressive mentality. If you don't stop their fighting ships it's the troop transports that will be the icon of terror. Flying saucers landing en masse disgorging those giants with blood on their visage rampaging, burning and killing.
Yeah, they're that kind of badass.
I read some CT material looking for them and ground warbots. They prefer doing it themselves. What makes them dangerous is the number of warriors they can field tied to that focused aggressive mentality. If you don't stop their fighting ships it's the troop transports that will be the icon of terror. Flying saucers landing en masse disgorging those giants with blood on their visage rampaging, burning and killing.
Yeah, they're that kind of badass.
Reynard
Cosmic Mongoose
Looking through some older material such as Striker, I have a snapshot of typical k’kree ground military units.
First, all troopers are part of a team with the smallest common unit as platoon equivalent of 50 warriors. Vehicle personnel units are smaller by necessity and considered sanctioned lunatics. As a side note, this was before the drone concept we see in Traveller today so it seems logical remote drone vehicles as well as remote space fighters would be common with the claustrophobic race.
There is a higher level of military experience because every male must serve at least one term of service as warriors. Many rigidly bind themselves to service for their lifetime and become very dedicated servicemen. As a phrasing to a k’kree military mentality, “a warrior herbivore can be far more dangerous than any carnivore, since the herbivores lacks any of the compunctions and restraints that may guide his carnivore (or omnivore) counterpart.
That said, their caste system also favors caste priorities over an experienced person for officers. Troopers are fast on their feet moving about three times faster than a human up to 4 to 5 times faster in a short charge while able to carry four times the weight in equipment and can handle high recoil weapons without penalty. Big guns and polearms.
Their flaw is in armor units similar to starship issues. For a vessel of equal function and capability, it must have living space 6 to 12 times that of a human vehicle. Though no more dangerous, the size of their vehicles can awe and intimidate. Again, if we add drone tech, this can be negated though there may be a sense of honor and pride being actually on the battlefield as part of the greater herd.
First, all troopers are part of a team with the smallest common unit as platoon equivalent of 50 warriors. Vehicle personnel units are smaller by necessity and considered sanctioned lunatics. As a side note, this was before the drone concept we see in Traveller today so it seems logical remote drone vehicles as well as remote space fighters would be common with the claustrophobic race.
There is a higher level of military experience because every male must serve at least one term of service as warriors. Many rigidly bind themselves to service for their lifetime and become very dedicated servicemen. As a phrasing to a k’kree military mentality, “a warrior herbivore can be far more dangerous than any carnivore, since the herbivores lacks any of the compunctions and restraints that may guide his carnivore (or omnivore) counterpart.
That said, their caste system also favors caste priorities over an experienced person for officers. Troopers are fast on their feet moving about three times faster than a human up to 4 to 5 times faster in a short charge while able to carry four times the weight in equipment and can handle high recoil weapons without penalty. Big guns and polearms.
Their flaw is in armor units similar to starship issues. For a vessel of equal function and capability, it must have living space 6 to 12 times that of a human vehicle. Though no more dangerous, the size of their vehicles can awe and intimidate. Again, if we add drone tech, this can be negated though there may be a sense of honor and pride being actually on the battlefield as part of the greater herd.
The drone factor and robot development are significant changes needed from previous documentation of the K'Kree.
They just aren't good at going into tight spaces to go after enemies and the need to have lots of their kind around gets in the way of things like vehicle design - unless you can keep the K'Kree out of the vehicle.
I view drones two ways. One are remotely piloted/driven vehicles, while the others are essentially large warbots that fulfil a limeted role.
I could see the K'Kree doing both. The space requirements of vehicle crews mean needing to make the greatest possible use of each operator. (at 24-48 tons of starship space to get that operator to another world, it takes much more for that K'Kree vehicle operator to pay his weight.
By taking the human operator(s) out of the vehicles you get a smaller space requirement. A more compact vehicle can mean better armour and survivability. The K'Kree get there by necessity. But why stop there. How about seven compact battle tanks, all identical. One is directly operated by the drone, while the other six are operated by semi-autonomous robots that copy the one that is directly operated. When that operator picks a target, he can designate an entire group (so the warbots can target other enemies in the group) or gang up on one target.
Taking out the directly operated one seems attractive here but the operator has the codes to resume control through another warbot in the group. There is no single master vehicle, just the one being directly operated at that time.
And if communication is jammed, they revert to basic programming of maintaining a low profile, moving for cover if coming under attack, and targetting any enemy within their rules of engagement. So the continue fighting in a fairly dumb mode until control is resumed.
Of course what I just described is not TL 15 robotics, but robot vehicles manufactured at a TL 13 level could be mass produced cheaper than the current cutting edge technology can and they are building something that is pretty much expendable.
So you have a saucer assault carrier that carries vehicle operators who may be able to stay in orbit or can hold back behind the lines while expendable warbots bleed the enemy.
They just aren't good at going into tight spaces to go after enemies and the need to have lots of their kind around gets in the way of things like vehicle design - unless you can keep the K'Kree out of the vehicle.
I view drones two ways. One are remotely piloted/driven vehicles, while the others are essentially large warbots that fulfil a limeted role.
I could see the K'Kree doing both. The space requirements of vehicle crews mean needing to make the greatest possible use of each operator. (at 24-48 tons of starship space to get that operator to another world, it takes much more for that K'Kree vehicle operator to pay his weight.
By taking the human operator(s) out of the vehicles you get a smaller space requirement. A more compact vehicle can mean better armour and survivability. The K'Kree get there by necessity. But why stop there. How about seven compact battle tanks, all identical. One is directly operated by the drone, while the other six are operated by semi-autonomous robots that copy the one that is directly operated. When that operator picks a target, he can designate an entire group (so the warbots can target other enemies in the group) or gang up on one target.
Taking out the directly operated one seems attractive here but the operator has the codes to resume control through another warbot in the group. There is no single master vehicle, just the one being directly operated at that time.
And if communication is jammed, they revert to basic programming of maintaining a low profile, moving for cover if coming under attack, and targetting any enemy within their rules of engagement. So the continue fighting in a fairly dumb mode until control is resumed.
Of course what I just described is not TL 15 robotics, but robot vehicles manufactured at a TL 13 level could be mass produced cheaper than the current cutting edge technology can and they are building something that is pretty much expendable.
So you have a saucer assault carrier that carries vehicle operators who may be able to stay in orbit or can hold back behind the lines while expendable warbots bleed the enemy.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Obviously, you need to intercept their ships before they make landfall, especially their troopships.
Also, the flipside of being big enough to carry lots of equipment is that you become a larger target, worthy of ship smart missiles.
Also, the flipside of being big enough to carry lots of equipment is that you become a larger target, worthy of ship smart missiles.
Reynard
Cosmic Mongoose
The original CT Robots book states the K'kree don't like using infantry warbots probably due to their caste system and the honor of being a warrior. A vehicle can be considered different as they are not as personal, merely support and psychologically hostile to a military. Remote drone vehicles can be justified as a K'kree warrior is still in control and part of the action.
I wonder if assault ships would be separated as infantry transport while vehicles drones and their operators have their ship. I somehow see K'kree preferring the company of warriors for morale.
We all know why the K'kree avoid the Hiver like a plague. It's their size and psychology that restrains them from going after the Imperium. Their ships are comparable to the issue of Jump-non-jump ships, ton for ton a non-K'kree ship is out-gunned. We get the picture the K'kree are over there seething that a carnivore race is going unpunished for existing. Their solution should be bigger ships and lots of them possibly favoring mass autonomous fighter drones. Space is not a real battlefield for a K'kree so let a robotic minion operate where a true warrior can't saving remote pilots to send larger anti-ship drones in for the kill. This would be a reflection of their personal advantage of size and herd mentality in ground battles.
I wonder if assault ships would be separated as infantry transport while vehicles drones and their operators have their ship. I somehow see K'kree preferring the company of warriors for morale.
We all know why the K'kree avoid the Hiver like a plague. It's their size and psychology that restrains them from going after the Imperium. Their ships are comparable to the issue of Jump-non-jump ships, ton for ton a non-K'kree ship is out-gunned. We get the picture the K'kree are over there seething that a carnivore race is going unpunished for existing. Their solution should be bigger ships and lots of them possibly favoring mass autonomous fighter drones. Space is not a real battlefield for a K'kree so let a robotic minion operate where a true warrior can't saving remote pilots to send larger anti-ship drones in for the kill. This would be a reflection of their personal advantage of size and herd mentality in ground battles.
Rikki Tikki Traveller
Cosmic Mongoose
What about the use of subordinate races for certain claustraphobic situations?
There are humans and other races within the 2KW. They could be used/pigeon-holed into certain special needs within the military.
There are humans and other races within the 2KW. They could be used/pigeon-holed into certain special needs within the military.
Reynard
Cosmic Mongoose
Reading over the old material, K'kree are hell bent on their obsessive compulsive need to make the galaxy safe for K'kree society. Other races are exterminated or kept in guarded check as Not Us. The herd is all and it is K'kree. It sounds like they may use a subject race but for much dirtier and dishonorable work, the untouchables such as in Japan and India.
Scary to reread how K'kree social, psychological and technical evolution is based primarily on extermination of anything considered a predator. What race eliminates all predators from the ecology without concern for consequence? What other race in the 3I universe discovers an intelligent, civilized species of carnivores on a nearby moon and spend vast resources and time to single mindedly reach and destroy these people! So focused they never developed rockets but launch their first craft with fusion and grav drives! After eliminating the G'naak they realized there MUST be more and they created Jump technology for the sole purpose of finding and destroying every predator. This is instinctual hatred and they love it.
The K'kree stopped with the Hivers because well, damn. The sources say they stopped against the humans too but not because we're so buff and macho. They met an enemy who had the advantage of efficient craft, not personnel, vehicles and vessels. As what I wrote above, the K'kree spare no expense and stop at nothing to achieve their only goal for being off their home planet, extermination! If that sounds like a certain cyborg race, yeah, that kind of mindset. They have 2000 worlds to breed vast warrior castes. They will take their tech research to find new weapons. They will build fleets and armies (the word army - Kirunika'raa- translates to killer of vermin) meant to counter that small advantage. The Imperium, like most referees and players here came to the conclusion the K'kree are a joke race of impotent, angry cows and that shouldn't be. More than the other races the Imperium constantly skirmishes or is at war, the K'kree should be the biggest storm to watch. I think they should always have been THE threat.
Scary to reread how K'kree social, psychological and technical evolution is based primarily on extermination of anything considered a predator. What race eliminates all predators from the ecology without concern for consequence? What other race in the 3I universe discovers an intelligent, civilized species of carnivores on a nearby moon and spend vast resources and time to single mindedly reach and destroy these people! So focused they never developed rockets but launch their first craft with fusion and grav drives! After eliminating the G'naak they realized there MUST be more and they created Jump technology for the sole purpose of finding and destroying every predator. This is instinctual hatred and they love it.
The K'kree stopped with the Hivers because well, damn. The sources say they stopped against the humans too but not because we're so buff and macho. They met an enemy who had the advantage of efficient craft, not personnel, vehicles and vessels. As what I wrote above, the K'kree spare no expense and stop at nothing to achieve their only goal for being off their home planet, extermination! If that sounds like a certain cyborg race, yeah, that kind of mindset. They have 2000 worlds to breed vast warrior castes. They will take their tech research to find new weapons. They will build fleets and armies (the word army - Kirunika'raa- translates to killer of vermin) meant to counter that small advantage. The Imperium, like most referees and players here came to the conclusion the K'kree are a joke race of impotent, angry cows and that shouldn't be. More than the other races the Imperium constantly skirmishes or is at war, the K'kree should be the biggest storm to watch. I think they should always have been THE threat.
Reynard wrote:
I think they would be separate ships. This allows a ship transporting warriors to be optimized for delivery of a typical unit size. The vehicle carrier may be larger with much of it as hangar space for the support and assault vehicles. Units will tend to identify with those in a similar function as their herd. So a force of 50 or 100 infantry would be a mini-herd that works together. They would all leave ship together.
The drone operators on the vehicle carrier see themselves as another mini-herd that works together to operate the vehicles in support of the troops.
Well, they love the hunt of vermin, a physical and social activity. It would be the ultimate K'Kree bonding ritual, working together to eliminate a threat to the herd. I think that is the psychological focus. They have no compelling need to wipe out all carnivores - only a compulsive desire to wipe out all nearby carnivores and a compulsive need to ensure the safety of the herd.
Driving headlong into the Imperium on an anti-carnivore crusade will exhaust warriors and materials while taking these farther away from the herd where they can no longer respond to direct threats. They won't leave the herd for long to hunt vermin.
While their initial drive into space was to exterminate Gnaak, expansion by jump drive would also be to find new worlds and new resources. Eventually, they would reach a population their homeworld could not support. They needed agricultural worlds to produce food for the homeworld, and merchant fleets to transport this food. And expanding the herd to settle other worlds also helps ensure survival as the herd can be split up. Knowing that there must be other Gnaak out there, the imperitive would be to not have the herd on just one world and to extend the edges of the herd out to create a buffer zone - other protected worlds that must be fought past before an enemy Gnaak could threaten the homeworld.
If the Aslan were right next door to a high population K'Kree world, the K'Kree would want to depopulate some of those Aslan worlds to re-establish a buffer zone and keep the Aslan away from the herd. I don't think the K'Kree ever pursued a policy of exterminating an interstellar civilization. They were seizing and colonizing worlds in Hiver space, not trying to wipe them out. This gave the Hivers time to manipulate the K'Kree because the K'Kree were only expanding as fast as they could absorb/use worlds.
They expand to find new worlds to support more K'Kree and any creatures in their sphere of control must either become herbivores or be killed. Those outside the sphere of control would be kept out there by the K'Kree navy.
There are large buffer zones between the K'Kree and the Imperium. Human worlds on the border of K'Kree space may not feel they can count on the Imperium to come to their defense and probably enforce vegetarianism by law - to make sure the K'Kree don't see them as threatening. The Imperium doesn't need to take such an action because, due to the distance between the K'Kree and the Imperium, they are not yet threatening the herd.
But just as the Aslan expand, the K'Kree probably feel a genetic imperitive to have lots of kids and those kids need to live somewhere. They can't let the population on their core worlds get too high but TL 15 medical science and a lack of predators would lead to a growing population if birth rates aren't held in check. There would probably be a continuous drive to outer colonies as lower caste K'Kree may not be allowed many offspring on their core worlds and the lower caste K'Kree would need to overcome a fear of space travel if they wish to have more children. But where do these colonies go? The K'Kree must expand to have living room for their expanding herd. Eventually the buffer zone between the Imperium and K'Kree space would be absorbed and the borders would eventually reach each other - and then the threat of war will be a present threat.
Still, this wouldn't turn into a war of extermination. Sending fleets deep into the Imperium wiping out all humans would be expensive and take those fleets to far from their home herds.
It would be more like the Zhodani Frontier wars - periodically another war breaks out and continues until a new buffer zone is established and then it can settle back into peace.
I think they would be separate ships. This allows a ship transporting warriors to be optimized for delivery of a typical unit size. The vehicle carrier may be larger with much of it as hangar space for the support and assault vehicles. Units will tend to identify with those in a similar function as their herd. So a force of 50 or 100 infantry would be a mini-herd that works together. They would all leave ship together.
The drone operators on the vehicle carrier see themselves as another mini-herd that works together to operate the vehicles in support of the troops.
Well, they love the hunt of vermin, a physical and social activity. It would be the ultimate K'Kree bonding ritual, working together to eliminate a threat to the herd. I think that is the psychological focus. They have no compelling need to wipe out all carnivores - only a compulsive desire to wipe out all nearby carnivores and a compulsive need to ensure the safety of the herd.
Driving headlong into the Imperium on an anti-carnivore crusade will exhaust warriors and materials while taking these farther away from the herd where they can no longer respond to direct threats. They won't leave the herd for long to hunt vermin.
While their initial drive into space was to exterminate Gnaak, expansion by jump drive would also be to find new worlds and new resources. Eventually, they would reach a population their homeworld could not support. They needed agricultural worlds to produce food for the homeworld, and merchant fleets to transport this food. And expanding the herd to settle other worlds also helps ensure survival as the herd can be split up. Knowing that there must be other Gnaak out there, the imperitive would be to not have the herd on just one world and to extend the edges of the herd out to create a buffer zone - other protected worlds that must be fought past before an enemy Gnaak could threaten the homeworld.
If the Aslan were right next door to a high population K'Kree world, the K'Kree would want to depopulate some of those Aslan worlds to re-establish a buffer zone and keep the Aslan away from the herd. I don't think the K'Kree ever pursued a policy of exterminating an interstellar civilization. They were seizing and colonizing worlds in Hiver space, not trying to wipe them out. This gave the Hivers time to manipulate the K'Kree because the K'Kree were only expanding as fast as they could absorb/use worlds.
They expand to find new worlds to support more K'Kree and any creatures in their sphere of control must either become herbivores or be killed. Those outside the sphere of control would be kept out there by the K'Kree navy.
There are large buffer zones between the K'Kree and the Imperium. Human worlds on the border of K'Kree space may not feel they can count on the Imperium to come to their defense and probably enforce vegetarianism by law - to make sure the K'Kree don't see them as threatening. The Imperium doesn't need to take such an action because, due to the distance between the K'Kree and the Imperium, they are not yet threatening the herd.
But just as the Aslan expand, the K'Kree probably feel a genetic imperitive to have lots of kids and those kids need to live somewhere. They can't let the population on their core worlds get too high but TL 15 medical science and a lack of predators would lead to a growing population if birth rates aren't held in check. There would probably be a continuous drive to outer colonies as lower caste K'Kree may not be allowed many offspring on their core worlds and the lower caste K'Kree would need to overcome a fear of space travel if they wish to have more children. But where do these colonies go? The K'Kree must expand to have living room for their expanding herd. Eventually the buffer zone between the Imperium and K'Kree space would be absorbed and the borders would eventually reach each other - and then the threat of war will be a present threat.
Still, this wouldn't turn into a war of extermination. Sending fleets deep into the Imperium wiping out all humans would be expensive and take those fleets to far from their home herds.
It would be more like the Zhodani Frontier wars - periodically another war breaks out and continues until a new buffer zone is established and then it can settle back into peace.
Reynard
Cosmic Mongoose
You need to read the older Traveller K'kree sourcebook. They HATE carnivores only tolerating human contact because they have no means as of yet to get them. Their whole science is towards eradication. Jump was created to find and kill more carnivores. They are instinctually compelled.
Populating worlds along the way is for military purposes and they had to rework their social structure for herds not on the home world. They would have spread quicker except for their very conservative caste system with authority coming from higher class following a chain back to Kirur. The rift to the Core, the powerful Humaniti to the Spinward separated by the broken region and the Hiver to the Rimward. As yet, there is no mention what may be Trailward. Maybe that's why they don't become aggressive with humans, to busy with easier targets.
I always have the impression everyone treats them as a joke, dangerous cows - ha ha! All the material says they should be the most interesting and original nemesis for the Imperium yet they get bottled up like a zoo specimen.
In my near Sol campaign, Humans, vargr and droyne cooperate and have at least an uneasy interaction with the Aslans but it's the reports about the irrational, genocidal race just beginning to appear that has everyone apprehensive and fearful. The giants are like nothing encountered before and they could create alliances not thought possible within the other races. They're my campaign's borg.
Populating worlds along the way is for military purposes and they had to rework their social structure for herds not on the home world. They would have spread quicker except for their very conservative caste system with authority coming from higher class following a chain back to Kirur. The rift to the Core, the powerful Humaniti to the Spinward separated by the broken region and the Hiver to the Rimward. As yet, there is no mention what may be Trailward. Maybe that's why they don't become aggressive with humans, to busy with easier targets.
I always have the impression everyone treats them as a joke, dangerous cows - ha ha! All the material says they should be the most interesting and original nemesis for the Imperium yet they get bottled up like a zoo specimen.
In my near Sol campaign, Humans, vargr and droyne cooperate and have at least an uneasy interaction with the Aslans but it's the reports about the irrational, genocidal race just beginning to appear that has everyone apprehensive and fearful. The giants are like nothing encountered before and they could create alliances not thought possible within the other races. They're my campaign's borg.
Just an observation - no they don't (yet). "The Two Thousand Worlds" isn't reflective of an empire of two thousand planets yet - the name comes from the number of stars visible to the naked eye from their homeworld; i.e they claim dominion everywhere, over everything.
Agreed on the ship designs - I suspect you'd see massed and/or huge troopships, carrying tons of soldiers for ground combat, with drones and AI-driven light warships and battleriders to do the fighting in orbit.
Does leave me curious about the ecology of K'Kree worlds; taking out predators from an evolved ecology should be fairly devastating because you then get overrun with foliage-destroying mid-range herbivores...
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Most importantly, we don't need to feel any moral qualms in exterminating them, much like we need to feel no qualms into biting into a Big Mac.
Reynard
Cosmic Mongoose
Sorry I was too literal about the 2K World reference. I should have said they have a growing base for creating a huge warrior population and warriors in K'kree society are, first and foremost, the exterminators. More worlds mean more resources to build more industry to launch more ships.
I am absolutely fascinated as to what's Trailward of 2KW that has stalled any expansion with the K'kree and possibly the Hiver too. We know it's partly their conservative nature and clinging to a central power so they don't consider it worth hunting farther. That said, they are confined by expanses and enemies. The vargr are fairly safe by that huge gap of other territories between them and the large K'kree outpost in the Gn'hk'r sector. I have a feeling that outpost isn't geared for war anyhow....
I so wish I could find a copy of Gateway to Destiny, I just don't have $80! That sounds the most promising a foundation for building K'kree-Humaniti conflict. Anyone know if it's available as a PDF?
I am absolutely fascinated as to what's Trailward of 2KW that has stalled any expansion with the K'kree and possibly the Hiver too. We know it's partly their conservative nature and clinging to a central power so they don't consider it worth hunting farther. That said, they are confined by expanses and enemies. The vargr are fairly safe by that huge gap of other territories between them and the large K'kree outpost in the Gn'hk'r sector. I have a feeling that outpost isn't geared for war anyhow....
I so wish I could find a copy of Gateway to Destiny, I just don't have $80! That sounds the most promising a foundation for building K'kree-Humaniti conflict. Anyone know if it's available as a PDF?
Rikki Tikki Traveller
Cosmic Mongoose
Well, I don't buy the OTU map that the K'Kree and Hivers haven't expanded farther Trailing. I think that the Map of Charted Space is an Imperial publication and contains what they know. I also suspect that the Vargr have moved farther Coreward and the Solomani have moved farther Rimward than The Map shows. When you look at the map, most of the bigger empires don't have a logical shape. You would expect them to generally expand in a sphere/circle until something stops them. The Rifts stop them, other empires stop them, but if there is nothing to stop them they should keep expanding.
Since the Vargr homeworld is actually pretty far away from the Imperium, I would expect that Vargr have expanded quite a bit farther Coreward than has been shown. Imperial map makers just don't have any accurate data of these far-off places, so they leave the border where it was 500 years ago.
I have always treated any published material as "Public Knowledge" that allows me to change things without breaking the setting.
Regarding a Big Threat to Trailing that is hemming in the K'Kree. Again, per the OTU assumptions there are very few races that have ever developed FTL travel. So it is unlikely that there is a big, unknown interstellar empire hiding out there holding back the K'Kree.
Since the Vargr homeworld is actually pretty far away from the Imperium, I would expect that Vargr have expanded quite a bit farther Coreward than has been shown. Imperial map makers just don't have any accurate data of these far-off places, so they leave the border where it was 500 years ago.
I have always treated any published material as "Public Knowledge" that allows me to change things without breaking the setting.
Regarding a Big Threat to Trailing that is hemming in the K'Kree. Again, per the OTU assumptions there are very few races that have ever developed FTL travel. So it is unlikely that there is a big, unknown interstellar empire hiding out there holding back the K'Kree.
Reynard wrote
I have the 1984 Alien Module from GDW (Written by Andrew Keith and Loren K Wiseman). I went through a scanned copy of the module looking for references to carnivore and G'naak when writing my post.
On page 3, their basis for an army (and military in general) was based on the concept of hunting for vermin (carnivores that can threaten the herd). There is a cultural preocupation with tracking down potential dangers to the herd which drove all of their technological development. This isn't just military development. It is not described as a purely military based activity. Agriculture, for example, was invented to provide a more stable food source (protect the herd from hunger/starvation).
The focus here cannot be stressed enough - the protection of the herd. Not every carnivore in the galaxy is a threat to the herd. A carnivore in the vicinity of the herd may pose a threat that would need to be dealt with. They wouldn't cross half the galaxy to see if there is a carnivore there - they will patrol their borders and watch for any potentially threatening creature approaching their space and weigh the threat. A fleet of Vargr corsairs would get in a fight right away. Maybe any Varger might. But a barely armed tramp freighter with a handful of humans on it may get through with friendly words and intentions.
A case in point. On page 10 of the Alien Module it describes the treatment of humans in the Two Thousand Worlds. There are a couple of paragraphs about the need to adopt a vegetarian diet. The K'Kree "distrust all strangers and dtest those who eat meat. Humans voyaging in K'Kree space will have little if any chance to deal with the Centaurs unless they adopt the right attitudes or customs. First and foremost, a change in diet is required."
Okay, so far that isn't inconsistent with what you said, but it goes on to say that it takes three days to eliminate the odors associated with the consumption of meat and says "Until these odors are completely gone, K'kree reactions will be very negative and the human will find a poor reception up to that time". Note that this is a golden opportunity to say something like "will drive K'Kree into a homicidal frenzy", but it doesn't. It just says a poor reaction. Says nothing about any violence. Seems more like "I don't like how you smell. Get out of my office!"
Of course if you start a fight with a K'Kree while smelling of meat - the smell may compound things into a view that you are just like the G'naak. I found nothing in the Alien Module that says they are driven to kill all carnivores - just that they are driven to protect the herd. So until you represent a clear danger to the herd you may be able to get by.
The K'kee are dangerous not because they have an irrational hatred of us. They are dangerous because they have a cold rational approach to eliminating threats to their herds.
Violence for humans can be an outlet to release tensions. Two men might be driven into conflict which they seek to settle with their fists, a dominance struggle that has played out many times for thousands of years. There are rules. Hitting from behind appears weak, and the purpose is to show strength and superiority. When one backs down the other will generally stop hititng him (maybe a punch or two extra to make the point first) but we are psychologically conditioned to accept surrender.
The K'kree have no such boundaries and rules once you cross a line where violence is needed. Walking around smelling of meat is offensive. An insult. You will hear "get out of my office. Get out of my shop. Leave my neighborhood. Go back to your ship." Maybe physical threats will be involved if you hang around much longer, maybe not. But if you are alone (another taboo - loners are insane) and you pick a fight with a K'Kree who threatens you, this may be enough to push the K'Kree to violent action. You are now an insane loner G'naak who is attacking a member of the herd.. And now you are up against a group of them because they will reach this decision together or follow those who lead. They don't act alone. And they don't stop. They don't understand submission rituals that end fights without bloodshed or death. Once you are G'naak you can't surrender and live. Maybe you can run and escape. If you run far enough they may give up pursuit. But if you stand and fight and kill members of the herd you will find yourself up against more and more and more of them.
I think the nearest analogy for a meat eating human in K'Kree space would be a black man in 1960's Mississippi in a white neighborhood during a Klan rally. Not guaranteed he will be lynched but he knows he needs to really watch his behavior and not make waves if he's going to survive this.
Actually, a pretty good analogy I think. The K'kree are the ultimate racists.
I have the 1984 Alien Module from GDW (Written by Andrew Keith and Loren K Wiseman). I went through a scanned copy of the module looking for references to carnivore and G'naak when writing my post.
On page 3, their basis for an army (and military in general) was based on the concept of hunting for vermin (carnivores that can threaten the herd). There is a cultural preocupation with tracking down potential dangers to the herd which drove all of their technological development. This isn't just military development. It is not described as a purely military based activity. Agriculture, for example, was invented to provide a more stable food source (protect the herd from hunger/starvation).
The focus here cannot be stressed enough - the protection of the herd. Not every carnivore in the galaxy is a threat to the herd. A carnivore in the vicinity of the herd may pose a threat that would need to be dealt with. They wouldn't cross half the galaxy to see if there is a carnivore there - they will patrol their borders and watch for any potentially threatening creature approaching their space and weigh the threat. A fleet of Vargr corsairs would get in a fight right away. Maybe any Varger might. But a barely armed tramp freighter with a handful of humans on it may get through with friendly words and intentions.
A case in point. On page 10 of the Alien Module it describes the treatment of humans in the Two Thousand Worlds. There are a couple of paragraphs about the need to adopt a vegetarian diet. The K'Kree "distrust all strangers and dtest those who eat meat. Humans voyaging in K'Kree space will have little if any chance to deal with the Centaurs unless they adopt the right attitudes or customs. First and foremost, a change in diet is required."
Okay, so far that isn't inconsistent with what you said, but it goes on to say that it takes three days to eliminate the odors associated with the consumption of meat and says "Until these odors are completely gone, K'kree reactions will be very negative and the human will find a poor reception up to that time". Note that this is a golden opportunity to say something like "will drive K'Kree into a homicidal frenzy", but it doesn't. It just says a poor reaction. Says nothing about any violence. Seems more like "I don't like how you smell. Get out of my office!"
Of course if you start a fight with a K'Kree while smelling of meat - the smell may compound things into a view that you are just like the G'naak. I found nothing in the Alien Module that says they are driven to kill all carnivores - just that they are driven to protect the herd. So until you represent a clear danger to the herd you may be able to get by.
The K'kee are dangerous not because they have an irrational hatred of us. They are dangerous because they have a cold rational approach to eliminating threats to their herds.
Violence for humans can be an outlet to release tensions. Two men might be driven into conflict which they seek to settle with their fists, a dominance struggle that has played out many times for thousands of years. There are rules. Hitting from behind appears weak, and the purpose is to show strength and superiority. When one backs down the other will generally stop hititng him (maybe a punch or two extra to make the point first) but we are psychologically conditioned to accept surrender.
The K'kree have no such boundaries and rules once you cross a line where violence is needed. Walking around smelling of meat is offensive. An insult. You will hear "get out of my office. Get out of my shop. Leave my neighborhood. Go back to your ship." Maybe physical threats will be involved if you hang around much longer, maybe not. But if you are alone (another taboo - loners are insane) and you pick a fight with a K'Kree who threatens you, this may be enough to push the K'Kree to violent action. You are now an insane loner G'naak who is attacking a member of the herd.. And now you are up against a group of them because they will reach this decision together or follow those who lead. They don't act alone. And they don't stop. They don't understand submission rituals that end fights without bloodshed or death. Once you are G'naak you can't surrender and live. Maybe you can run and escape. If you run far enough they may give up pursuit. But if you stand and fight and kill members of the herd you will find yourself up against more and more and more of them.
I think the nearest analogy for a meat eating human in K'Kree space would be a black man in 1960's Mississippi in a white neighborhood during a Klan rally. Not guaranteed he will be lynched but he knows he needs to really watch his behavior and not make waves if he's going to survive this.
Actually, a pretty good analogy I think. The K'kree are the ultimate racists.
Rikki Tikki Traveller wrote
This is a completely fair point. The map centers on the Third Imperium and is from the Third Imperium's perspective. Neighbours are either hostile (Solomani, Zhodani), fragmented (Vargr, Aslan), insular and suspicious (K'Kree) and just plain enigmatic (Hivers). There are reasons whiy the K'kree, Solomani and Zhodani would conceal their borders. Even if they are not really hiding anything - a suspicion that they may be hiding something will keep the Imperium cautious. The Zhodani don't disclose their core expeditions or the Ancient device that is driving this exploration. The K'kree will want the Imperium to worry that their space is just as large so don't start a fight. The Aslan and Vargr territories near the Imperium may, themselves, lack knowledge of the territories of faraway clans and governments.
This is a completely fair point. The map centers on the Third Imperium and is from the Third Imperium's perspective. Neighbours are either hostile (Solomani, Zhodani), fragmented (Vargr, Aslan), insular and suspicious (K'Kree) and just plain enigmatic (Hivers). There are reasons whiy the K'kree, Solomani and Zhodani would conceal their borders. Even if they are not really hiding anything - a suspicion that they may be hiding something will keep the Imperium cautious. The Zhodani don't disclose their core expeditions or the Ancient device that is driving this exploration. The K'kree will want the Imperium to worry that their space is just as large so don't start a fight. The Aslan and Vargr territories near the Imperium may, themselves, lack knowledge of the territories of faraway clans and governments.
Reynard
Cosmic Mongoose
I'm beginning to realize, next to the Hivers and Droyne, the K'kree are actually safe if not just an impotent race to the Imperium. Won't become aggressive unless actually provoked by others, unable to field a military able to be a challenge to any major race and more concerned with their internal affairs. I guess they have value as an exotic interaction but not much more. Go back to the Solomani trying to take back their sphere, the Aslan trying to take Imperial lands for fathers and sons, Zhodani trying to impose order on everyone else and the Vargr for just being pirates.
Back to a footnote on the galactic map. "Mostly harmless"
Back to a footnote on the galactic map. "Mostly harmless"
