Is The K'kree Navy A Threat - I Think Not! / Virus

[Meanderer]

Mostly harmless until they are not.

They will attempt peaceful coexistence with a dangerous neighbor but I don't think they psychologically can handle the switch between enemy and friend the same way humans can.

They are a deeply conservative species that picks up cues from others. Kind of stuck in groupthink. An individual K'Kree may get upset with a human but will be watching what other K'kree are doing about it. So you can push them and they may back off and see what happens, do nothing and watch, be cautious in responding, until there is a clear consensus that violent action must be taken. Then they suddenly move en mass.

There just hasn't been a big human-K'Kree war and I think the Imperium would have a problem dealing with them. If the K'Kree have 10,000 ships on the border but think they need 12,000 to acheive their military objectives - then they will hold off the war as much as they can until they have the 12,000. They will set clear objectives and may be prepared to stop when the objectives are met if this creates a situation where they feel the herd is not threatened.

The resources they can bring to bear are huge. Internal conflict is not known. They don't have ongoing problems with anti-social citizens. A lot of resources the Imperium uses for police, local planetary forces, and Imperial forces to show the flag and uphold Imperial law just aren't needed by the K'Kree. They can maintain all their fleets on the borders with little/no fear of rebellion in the interior. And they can handle a war footing better. At some point increased taxes and shortages of materials will cause humans to resent the central government. Sure the Spinward Marches is completely behind the Imperial war effort against the Zhodani, but if it drags on too long the merchants in Illelish and Masila may question whether holding onto such a remote region of the empire is really needed.

But if the K'Kree collectively conclude that the Third Imperium is G'naak they will keep supporting the war effort for as long as needed to ensure that these G'naak are kept a safe distance from the Herd.

 

[Condottiere]

Vegan; imposed value system; big government.

Progressive liberals?

 

[Meanderer]

Compulsory military service and strictly defined social structure.

They are all one big well regulated militia ready to bear arms against any external threat.

Their whole societ seems built around the second amendtment. They are the NRA!

 

[sideranautae]

Given all the high powered radio (REALLY high powered) chatter that goes on in an active system, there's no real way for the Imperium to NOT know the extent of inhabited systems SO close to it borders. I can see a couple of "stealth" systems where it is only military but not civilian populated worlds.

 

[Meanderer]

Given all the high powered radio (REALLY high powered) chatter that goes on in an active system, there's no real way for the Imperium to NOT know the extent of inhabited systems SO close to it borders. I can see a couple of "stealth" systems where it is only military but not civilian populated worlds.

Well, yes, and even far from the borders. But the further we are talking about the more out of date the information becomes. Positioning a listening post just outside the K'kree borders might still be 50-100 parsecs from the far side of K'kree space.

If you can receive signals broadcast from the far side of the other's space, it will still take many years for the signal to reach, such that you are detecting activity from 160 to 320 years ago. The best you could do with radio detection is track expansion over time and, based on a typical rate of expansion, predict where the border is now.

Of course that depends on being able to receive the signal. The longer that radio message must go the more energy is required to broadcast it and/or the harder it gets to receive/decode the message at the receiving end.

A rough estimate I found for this is 10 GigaWatts required to send a signal 1 light year. Maybe improved technology to the cutting edge tech of the Imperium will increase this range, but how much. If at TL 15 they are able to receive the message 100 light years away, that is not enough. Fifty parsecs is about 160 light years. A more powerful signal would be needed and who is broadcasting at this amount of power? Why would they do it?

Consider also that the K'Kree have similar technology so if they have the same improved radio reception technology then they would be able to send messages with much less power output and still receive them in-system. Who is going to expend enough power to send a message 100 light years if you only need it to be received 0.1 light year away?

 

[Meanderer]

Sorry, I'm a bit of a nerd that way. But then, since we are all on a forum for a 1970's science fiction role-playing game that refused to die, aren't we all. :wink:

 

[Condottiere]

Let's assume the Long Night was a lot worse than we're led to believe, and together with the communications lag, accounts for the anachronistic technological trappings in Traveller 5K.

 

[Meanderer]

Yeah. FTL drives. Fusion power. Cloning. Meson guns. Even force fields (black globe generators).

with computers the size of a house

but then I think the old Buck Rogers serials had rockets, ray guns, etc. but if they want to bring a radio with them someone has to carry it like a backpack (and a large backpack at that).

 

[Reynard]

How did we get back to Traveller technology arguments in a topic about K'kree military concerns? If one really needs to harp again on the off topic, move it back to the many threads already dealing with the issue.

 

[sideranautae]

How did we get back to Traveller technology arguments in a topic about K'kree military concerns?

Probably because the topic title lists a particularly inane & insane piece of Traveller "tech"? :lol:

 

[Reynard]

Oh brother... One time.

That's the weird thing, everyone assumes the ship's computer is a box taking up the displacement listed yet I've seen over the decades descriptions and imagery showing the space as the computer room with components within. This goes along with the drives, power plant, bridge and staterooms not being a solid block of material. If the bridge can be spacious so can the computer room have space to move around and contain non-computer accessories and funishings.

Now get back to the topic.

 

[sideranautae]

Now get back to the topic.

Which topic, K'kree or, Virus?

 

[Meanderer]

How did we get back to Traveller technology arguments in a topic about K'kree military concerns?

Well, it started with an interesting and relevant question about radio listening posts picking up information coming on radio waves from neighboring empires, and whether this could give relaible information of the size of that empire.

A discussion of military capability really has to take in the relative size and population of the empire/state.

Also its security needs. Do the K'Kree need much forced on their border with the Vargr? Will this put a drag on their capabilities? And are there other empires bordering on them that create other security demands.

A lot of information about the Imperium is publicly available. Commercial starmaps with trade data (imports/exports/demographics) will give a fairly extensive picture of capabilities. The Imperium needs to encourage trade so any merchant may be able to get almost complete information on the locations of Imperial worlds, populations, level of industrialization, major trade routes, etc. The Imperium may not care that this is publicly known. Hey Aslan, check out how big we are and how many of us there are. You really don't want to start something....

Is similar information available about the Zhodani? The Solomani?

The lack of central governments may limit info available for Aslan and Vargr space to the near vicinity. Hivers are naturaly secretive? So how much of the "official" star maps the Imperium has for its neighbours reliable or what the other empire wants them to see?

The K'Kree trade extensively within their space - but they don't seem to encourage outsiders travelling in their space. So how will this impact information available? Do they have incentives to appear larger than they actually are, or smaller (less of a threat)?

 

[Condottiere]

The Solomani and the Imperium are probably transparent to each other, considering previous and prevailing contacts and links, plus shared history and culture.

The Aslan, the Vargr, the Solomani and the Imperium probably send overt and covert anthropological teams to figure each other out and gather information that is in the "public" realm and "common" knowledge.

 

[Meanderer]

I agree about the Solomani. Although current hostilities have extended for a few generations there is substantial knowledge of the culture on both sides. Agents would be able to freely travel and have all the information available to regular citizens.

Travel in the Aslan and Vargr territories would probably be in the form of traders (planting agents along on trading vessels is easy). Travel is limited by the nature of the Aslan (very territorial, prone to take offense, need to stroke their egos to get permission to be in / cross their territory), and the nature of the Vargr (more easy going but very fragmented and significant risk of corsair attacks). In the case of either Aslan or Vargr, you are dealing with a lot of small states who will have knowledge about their neighbours but maybe not so much knowledge of what lies a sector away (and even less about what is two sectors away).

The K'Kree are the most hierarchical and monolithic aliens - less prone to individuality; they make decisions slowly but when they move they move with a greater degree of cooperation than the Imperium can manage. So the information available to citizens may cover their whole territory but... Humans in the "Two Thousand Worlds" aren't really citizens. And I don't think there is much of a population of K'Kree in the Imperium that could be drawn upon to spy on the Herd.

I am thinking their conservatism, racism (speciesism?) and suspicion of outsiders might make them about as opaque as the Hivers (where you don't really know that much of what they are doing. I mean, you could make an alliance with one Aslan clan to spy on or attack another clan. And of course a Vargr group could be bought off to work against another Vargr group to which they owe/give no loyalty. But the K'Kree?

 

[sideranautae]

Well, yes, and even far from the borders. But the further we are talking about the more out of date the information becomes. Positioning a listening post just outside the K'kree borders might still be 50-100 parsecs from the far side of K'kree space.

That's a problem all right. Would have to mount an expensive project to flank the "edges". EXTREMELY difficult to say the least.

Of course that depends on being able to receive the signal. The longer that radio message must go the more energy is required to broadcast it and/or the harder it gets to receive/decode the message at the receiving end.

A rough estimate I found for this is 10 GigaWatts required to send a signal 1 light year.

See SETI detection ranges (and they have crap for funding). This is NOT a problem at the distances we are talking about for even TL 7. It is the size of the receiving antenna. SETI isn't looking for broadcast TO them as much as random leakage.

 

[sideranautae]

The Solomani and the Imperium are probably transparent to each other, considering previous and prevailing contacts and links, plus shared history and culture.

The Aslan, the Vargr, the Solomani and the Imperium probably send overt and covert anthropological teams to figure each other out and gather information that is in the "public" realm and "common" knowledge.

I agree. Too much inter "Empire" traffic to have secrets of that kind.

 

[Condottiere]

The thing about the Vargr, is if they're willing to sell out their canine competitors, they are just as likely to sell you out. Remember that pirate captain from the Clone Wars.

 

[Meanderer]

I haven't watched the Clone Wars.

But they are run by charismatic leaders who will need to achieve successes and provide rewards/recognition to their followers to stay on top - to maintain their charisma and stay ahead of potential rivals.

So..... The enemy of my enemy is preoccupied and may be an easy target (or easy mark).

The bought off Vargr will have his own agenda - telling the Imperium what he thinks the Imperium wants to hear (to keept he alliance going) or playing up or down the threat posed by an opposing Vargr group depending on which approach gets more Imperial support or trade deals.

Of course the Imperium isn't necessarily stupid (some nobles are more astute than others) and they will be doing their best to play the Vargr too. There'd be some crazy political maneuvering going.

I guess that's part of why I like the Vargr more than the K'Kree. Always viewed the K'Kree as a target for a very nasty war, not as something to be friends with. They are hard to relate to or work with - they just are what they are. The Hivers successfully manipulated their society in a scary way, but the Hivers have way more insights on this than Humans. From a Human perspective I just see them as frustrating, arrogant, obnoxious,...
Very slow to change their behaviours, coming accross as a bit stupid because they behave strangely and aren't telling/showing you what they are thinking.

 

[Condottiere]

They may be as single minded as Maximus in Tangled. I can see them sniffing out carnivores.

Easily bribed with apples.