Is RQ getting blander, edition by edition?

[RosenMcStern]

Just like how the Gloranthja runes went from being unique to the Glorantha setting to generic runes for the core book.

The core book explains that Rune Magic is a magic system that was designed with Glorantha in mind, although it can fit other settings, too.

Furthermore, HeroQuest introduced a lot more runes for the Gloranthan setting. Last but not least, this game, after all, is named RuneQuest. So introducing the basic runes in the core book was not a bad move, after all.

 

[ned_plants]

As far as the "well Chaosium didn't do this stuff until a few years after RQ came out, so give Mongoose time." argument goes, I don't think it is applicable. Back in the early days, Chaosium wasn't putting out that much stuff. Not much came out from 78 and 79. Even at its peak, Chaosium never put out the volume of material that Mongoose does. So I don't think its a time thing, but a choice.


What I do have a problem with is the toning down of the combat and magic to make the game play, well, more like D&D than RQ. I also don't like the "generic" cult write ups. That's a beef that goes back to RQ3, though. But is is a major source of "blandness". Back in RQ2 each cult was unique. Once the "short form" cult write ups, and the gerenic (function) god stuff go going, we lost that uniqueness. Just like how the Gloranthja runes went from being unique to the Glorantha setting to generic runes for the core book.[/quote]

You make a valid point that Chaosium did not put out but much stuff in the late seventies. But what they did publish can hardly be considered innovative. The first edition of Apple Lane was simply a generic dungeon crawl. No mention to Uleria be found -- not that it would have meant anything anyway; the pantheon was not that fleshed out. Now, I don't have objections to simple generic adventures -- They are the best way to teach a new rule system. But you can't point to them and say this is new different. What was innovative about the original Runequest carried over from White bear and Red Moon/ Nomad Gods, and this was less than clear. (At the time I met some of the designers -- alas I forget who -- and plaintively asked where the hell Dragon Pass was. The first edition just assumed you knew that it refered to half the map.)

Yes Mongoose did make a choice to give a broad over view of Glorantha first. Given that their focus was on the Second Age, previously only referred as ancient history, I can see the sense behind their decision -- especially after Runequest had been in abeyance for so long. But now they are getting to publishing more focused material such as The Clanking City. They have already published a book on the uz and are about put out books on the dragonewts and the aldrayami. Give them time.

I do tend feel cheated by the short forms of the various cults.[/quote]

 

[gamesmeister]

You make a valid point that Chaosium did not put out but much stuff in the late seventies. But what they did publish can hardly be considered innovative.

Uh...Cults of Prax wasn't innovative??

Apple Lane may not have set the world on fire, but it is an iconic scenario of it's time, and gave you a real feel for the world.

 

[atgxtg]

Oh, Uleria was menioned in Apple Lane. Just no cult write up. THe pantheon(s) were established, just that most were not converted over to the game yet.

RQ istelf was innovative. Apple Lane was a intro advenutre, so natually there an't much new to it, although it is certainly "deeper" than an AD&D "module" from the same era.

But don't forget Cults of Prax. It is was really sold Glorantha as a setting. Once there was enough money to print stuff, the innovation flowed.

 

[ned_plants]

Cult of Prax was the first truly innovative suppliment. But it was published ayear or two later.

Please note that I'm rellying solely on my memory here -- I lost all relavent material many many moves ago.

 

[zozotroll]

My cults of prax says copywrite 1979, so that is only a year after RQ 1

I am not looking for XXX, but this G is just not that cool. We get hard R on violence why not other stuff.

 

[Utgardloki]

I do miss the old Runequest style cult writeups. That was a great way to develope a deity's worship beyond "People worship Regnadnignivil and cast divine spells of the Fire and Beach Vollyball Domains."

The old Runequest cult writeups had sections for "Requirements to join", "Requirements to become a member", "Requirements to become an initiate", etc, indicating that some cults had services open to all while others had very closed societies, and some cults had special requirements to approach the inner ranks.

What I miss most were the "Reason for existance" and "Reason for continued existance". Gods were not just random NPCs with random names. There was a reason why a god was worshipped. They are not just sources of power for adventurers, but have a role to play in the cosmos.

 

[Halfbat]

[I miss... ]sections for "Requirements to join", "Requirements to become a member", "Requirements to become an initiate", etc, [... & most...] were the "Reason for existance" and "Reason for continued existance". Gods were not just random NPCs with random names. There was a reason why a god was worshipped. They are not just sources of power for adventurers, but have a role to play in the cosmos.

Yeah. There's loads of cults provided in the books but few details. For those use of Cults of Terror & Prax/Trollpak/ similar (See Cult Compendium!) this is frustrating. I feel the same way so, on the main cults I give in our supplements, I try and keep that retro feel without following it slavishly. Trouble is, of course, it isn't Glorantha by any means.

Gods and their cults should have a _reason_ for being.

 

[AKAramis]

Let s not forget that RQ also spawned a number of imitators. Some mechanically, some settingwise.

Jorune, Rhand, and other whole-cloth synthesized non-tolkeinian worlds grew up, knowing that, since RQ could make it, they might, too.

RQ 3 was pulled back... and where I entered RQ... I liked the game, but to be honest, I like to read about glorantha but will not run it. I've tried, and I failed. TOO much detail, too readily available.

 

[Halfbat]

I like to read about glorantha but will not run it. I've tried, and I failed. TOO much detail, too readily available.

Now _there's_ an interesting counter-view!

Greg S. does have a standing phrase, though, along the lines of "Your Glorantha May Differ", acknowledging that fans will vary things slightly.

 

[gamesmeister]

Yeah, his catchphrase is actually "YGWV", or "Your Glorantha will vary"

i.e. he actively encourages players not to get hung up on all the massive amounts of detail available, just pick the bits you like and change the bits you don't

 

[Halfbat]

Yeah, his catchphrase is actually "YGWV", or "Your Glorantha will vary"

That's the one! It's a decent policy, too, encouraging the "it's a game" aspect and ensuring GMs retain what limited power they have...

 

[zozotroll]

What fun would it be if everything had to happen a certain way?

I have ran a game where the party basicly followed Argarath around and did all the things he did. But, none of them had read the history, and so had no idea what was going on. Worked very well.

If enough detail comes out, perhaps they can follow Arkat the next time.

 

[TRose]

The very fact that players are in the game mean thing should change. Who would want to play a game where thing where ordained to happen. For another example, if you where playing in a Elric game would you want to play knowing that after 10 years the GM was going to destroy the world and kill everyone no matter what cause that was what happened in the book? And you could not do a thing to save the world or your characters. I think most of would not want that.

 

[atgxtg]

I also had difficulties running campaign on Glorantha. Not because of the information available (most of my players didn't read much), but because my players just couldn't handle the battle magic. They never figured out some basic tactics and would get trashed, usually do to misusing their own magic.

I can remember the last time I ran them in Glorantha. The characters had discovered some Broo on their clan lands. Despite setting up an ambush and having time to prepare, several of the PCs forgot to cast any battle magic. One guy stopped in the middle of the charge to put bladesharp on his sword. The guys who followed the plan ended up double and triple teamed as a result and the group took some heavy casualties in what was essentially a gimme.

 

[atgxtg]

Yeah, his catchphrase is actually "YGWV", or "Your Glorantha will vary"

That's the one! It's a decent policy, too, encouraging the "it's a game" aspect and ensuring GMs retain what limited power they have...

It7s not so much a policy but a statement of fact. There is no way for anyone to run the world exactly the way Greg does, or interpret things the same way. SO things will be different. The longer you run the more your campaign will diverge from Greg's.

Heck, Greg doesn't even run things the way the were originally. Things have gone from a "adventurer" based RPG, to one based around clans, tribes, and other cultures. Greg's added and changed gods and done a bunch of their things to the world since 1978, so there is little a GM could do to Glorantha that doesn't have a precedent.

 

[RosenMcStern]

I also had difficulties running campaign on Glorantha. Not because of the information available (most of my players didn't read much), but because my players just couldn't handle the battle magic. They never figured out some basic tactics and would get trashed, usually do to misusing their own magic.

Forgive me, but what does it have to do with Glorantha? The point is that they cannot handle widespread use of magic, not Glorantha. Run your campaign in the Malkioni West with Sandy's Sorcery, where everything is pre-cast, and this will not happen.

 

[atgxtg]

I also had difficulties running campaign on Glorantha. Not because of the information available (most of my players didn't read much), but because my players just couldn't handle the battle magic. They never figured out some basic tactics and would get trashed, usually do to misusing their own magic.

Forgive me, but what does it have to do with Glorantha? The point is that they cannot handle widespread use of magic, not Glorantha. Run your campaign in the Malkioni West with Sandy's Sorcery, where everything is pre-cast, and this will not happen.

Considering that most of the information and detail has gone into the Heortland, Prax, Balastar, and parts of the Lunar Empire, quite a bit. If RQ2, the only ares details used Battle Magic, and even in RQ3, the vast bulk of materials did not involve Sorcery, and Sandy's alternate version wasn't widely available when I was running this.

Glorantha was probably the only RPG setting at the time where every character knew some magic.

It wasn't until HeroQuest that we really started to get some details on the rest of Glorantha. The RQ3 Glorantha boxed set just covered too much to be of much use in setting up in the West. All the interesting cultures at the time used battle magic or something similar.

This was quite a few years back. Back when ISPs charged by the hour. Information was as easy to get as it is today.

 

[Nickbergquist]

I don't know if it is prudishness that leads game publishers to hold back. In general, I am not really interested in hearing my friends sexual fantasies, and scenarios involving condoms and sexual lubricants are not likely to lead to an enjoyable game experience.

OTOH, the PCs might find items in a treasure hoard that have a sexual application, such as ointment of sexual vigor, etc. But I would not want to center a game around The Dildo Of Doom.

The problem is the topic of sex in RPGs is most likely to come up in a violent context, such as "Your character is captured by orcs and..." This could offend another player's sensibilities. In a sense, the GM is considered to be responsible for what happens in a game, so if something like that happens, a player could take it personally.

On the other hand, "Your character successfully seduces the barmaid and takes her to your room..." is not as likely to be a problem. Just don't go on about what happens when the door is closed.

There is also the question of balance. Okay, maybe some barmaids are willing to accompany your PC to his room, but are all barmaids nothing more than targets of seduction rolls? I don't think so.

On the other hand, thinking about sex provides another dimension which can be added to the game, potentially leading to the kind of misunderstanding which leads to the PC learning that barmaids in The Barbarian Guild are all proficient in the handaxe. Or perhaps the barmaid's father just wants to talk to the PC about child support.

It would be nice to see a good treatment of sexuality in a role playing game, but the Americans especially are paranoid about any suggestion that teenagers learn anything about sex.

I think efforts to provide books with specific adult themes have worked fairly well for the d20 crowd. Maybe Runequest could do the same.

I've got to agree with you that the way the information is presented is important. And in fact, I'd suggest that one could cater the level of content according to the group in question. I've run campaigns in which everyone went in with an understanding (and expectation) or Heavy-Metal level sexuality and violence (the magazine is a great benchmark, I feel!) but by contrast, my most recent gaming group never, absolutely never even comes close to wanting to know what goes on behind closed doors, or what happens to the poor women who were just captured by orcs or what-not.

I have noticed that the more 20-somethings I have in my group, the likelier sex as a part of game events is to come up. Likewise, my current group, which is mostly gamers in their 40's and 50's (except for my girlfriend, who is in her 20's) show no interest whatsoever in sexual topics (except for the oldest guy in te group, for which is it mostly a subect of vague off-color jokes about elf women...and my gf, who is playing a female kobold which must regularly fight the social and biological imperative of her kin to breed like rabbits....). The raunchiest game I ever ran was the long running Heavy Metal style game, which was mostly 30 something guys who were all kind of pissed at various ex girlfriends and some dealing with divorce at the time, so there seemed to be an implicit acceptance that raping and pillaging were to be given their historically realistic due. It was very peculiar, I must say, but fun in the correct context. Had one of the guys girlfriends joined us ina game, I have no doubt the overt sex and violence would have immediately been toned down....maybe.

Anyway, just liked your comments and wanted to add a few of my own experiences to the mix.

EDIT: I'm not sure if Americans are that much more paranoid....well, naw, I think it's just a weird sort of taboo kind of deal where everyone regularly divulges themselves in naughty thoughts and behavior while at the same time being overly restrictive about what can or can not be allowed for teens on the subject. There is a rempant concern in the US about teen pregnancy and promiscuity which is, naturally, completely ineffective in dealing with the actual issue. A big part really has to do with lousy parenting, and the tendency of American parents to try and regulate their children's development through media rather than actual hands-on parenting efforts.

EDIT #2: Sorry too many typos to sit well with me; been up 2 days straight now on a work bender from hell!

 

[RosenMcStern]

Considering that most of the information and detail has gone into the Heortland, Prax, Balastar, and parts of the Lunar Empire, quite a bit. If RQ2, the only ares details used Battle Magic, and even in RQ3, the vast bulk of materials did not involve Sorcery, and Sandy's alternate version wasn't widely available when I was running this.

I have always run Sorcery-intensive games, both in Alternate Earth and in Glorantha. I moved to the West of Glorantha in 1993, and never went back to Heortland, although my old group is now playing Sartar vs. Lunars (with a lot of Sorcery, though). Most of the stuff about the West was in fanzines, but it was available for an affordable amount of bucks.

There are vast areas and cultures of Glorantha that have been explored in HeroQuest for the first time, but the amount of information that HQ added to the understanding of the West is close to neglectable, so far. Of course this is going to change, as there are several books for the Malkioni areas in the pipeline at present.