Is MRQ2/Legend suitable for campaigns set in MiddleEarth?

[cthulhudarren]

I'm considering an RPG campaign set in MiddleEarth and I'm curious if any Runequest folks have attempted this. The magic systems are modular enough that I think it could be done, but I am curious as to the general consensus here and whether anyone has tried this.

I was going to use all my old MERP stuff for the material.

Thanks!

 

[johnmarron]

I'm a big fan of MRQ2/Legend, and love it for grittier settings, but for my money, the new Tolkien RPG The One Ring from Cubicle 7 is the best published RPG for running a ME game. It should be in general release by the end of next month. I just started a campaign of it last night and it plays really well, and gives a solid Tolkien feel.

So, I'm sure you could do a ME game using Legend, but I think the feel would not be very Tolkien. IMO, One Ring is the first RPG that gets the feel right.

John

 

[Mixster]

I think it's fairly easily doable, since the combat system is realistic and magic can be any flavour you want, I think you can easily do Middle Earth.

 

[Dan True]

I think it's fairly easily doable, since the combat system is realistic and magic can be any flavour you want, I think you can easily do Middle Earth.

Well, it can be done - the point is whether it captures the essence. For instance, a band of weak hobbits with only one hero to defend them, faces down 5 Ring Wraiths... In the RuneQuest combat system, they wouldn't have lasted a round. Middle Earth is much more ... non-gritty ? ... than RuneQuest lays its talent to.

But, of course, it is doable... but I don't think it captures the style very well.

-Dan

 

[Morningkiller]

I think it can do some campaigns very well in Middle-Earth.

The all-hobbit party mentioned upthread would be a tough one I agree but if the PCs are a bunch of Rohirrim riders or Rangers of Ithilien then Legend should do the job nicely. A corruption mechanic might be useful.

I agree that the new One Ring rpg looks very good for what is at the moment a fairly limited setting (geographically and time-wise - I'm sure they will expand it) but IMHO Pendragon (which shares ancestors with runequest) with its traits and passions is the game best suited to capturing the feel of Middle-Earth - particularly the First and Second ages that really interest me as settings.

 

[danskmacabre]

I'm a huge fan of Tolkien, Middle Earth, LOTR etc..
I sooo wanted to like "The One ring" RPG.

But it's just not to my tastes. It's waay too abstract and just well, ill defined.
I think Legend would do a great job of handling Middle Earth and I think I would prefer using Legend. Of course the magic (more specifically spellls) would need an overhaul.
But really, trying to make an RPG like the book (or any novels really) is going to fall flat as things happen in a book because the Author writes it that way. It doesn't have to be logical. It's more about character development really.

Really, Middle Earth IS a very gritty world and gritty combat. There's also more magic, spells etc in Middle Earth then people interpret IMO.
In a legend/ME campaign, you can just use Hero points more, heroic abilities etc for the main characters.

Tolkien really isnt that consistent in the power of the various being in ME anyway.
One minute the ringwraiths are all powerful, other times they're pretty weak.

I think in the case of the Weathertop. you could just say the further way from Sauron they were, the weaker they were. Also they probably have a vulnerability to fire and they were absolutely focused on capturing Frodo and the ring, which gave Aragorn (who was armed with fire) a big advantage.

Who's to say the Hobbits were weak? the swords they had were Westernesse make swords (in the book anyway) and they weren't useless, but sure no match for a ringwraith.
The LOTR movie overstated the amount of Ringwraiths at Weathertop too. In the book it felt more like the witch king stabs Frodo and they pull back assuming he'll quicky succumb to the ring.
Which of course it took ages for him to succumb, but the witch king didn't know that was going to happen.

The "monsters must fight to the end" psychology doesn't work for me anyway. The Ring wraiths are clever. Once they stabbed Frodo they probably figured they could just wait for him to succumb, stick on the ring and become their slave or/and die due to the Morgul dagger would and die.
Why risk their neck in a stand up fight? Just whittle them down and get 'em when they're weak.

 

[Pendraig]

I don't know ... but we shall see. With the application of any gaming system there are always tweeks and torques.

At least it isn't D&D with pokemon powers....

 

[Prime_Evil]

There is a variant of OpenQuest called Age of Shadow that tackles high fantasy in the style of Tolkien. Because the rules are based off the RQ SRD it may be possible to plunder it for ideas:

Details are available here:

http://ageofshadow.freehostia.com/

It shouldn't be too difficult to use the bits that you like with MRQ2 / Legend if you want to adapt them to a Middle Earth campaign.

 

[Mixster]

I think it's fairly easily doable, since the combat system is realistic and magic can be any flavour you want, I think you can easily do Middle Earth.

Well, it can be done - the point is whether it captures the essence. For instance, a band of weak hobbits with only one hero to defend them, faces down 5 Ring Wraiths... In the RuneQuest combat system, they wouldn't have lasted a round. Middle Earth is much more ... non-gritty ? ... than RuneQuest lays its talent to.

But, of course, it is doable... but I don't think it captures the style very well.

-Dan

The most certainly would not!
Aragorn is a Dunedain. His Int and Dex should hit an average of more than 18, So he has 4 combat actions. While the Ringwraiths have a sloppy evade (I think we can agree on this?) and a lower Dex/Int average, giving them each 2 CA. Aragorn uses the terrain and his superior speed to use the outmanoeuvre action, so only the Ring Wraiths who beat his opposed evade can attack him. Lets assume his Evade is 90% (which is low according to the movie). Only 1 of them would face him each round, and he would be up 1 CA. The Wraith Would attack, He would attack (the wraiths seem to parry for some odd reason in the movie), and then he would follow up with his off-hand using a torch, and moving away on his last CA.

So the fight in the movie can be easily replicated using the Legend System. The Hobbits would also have a pretty good evade, and while not a good INT on most of them, they would have decent enough Dex scores to get them 3 CAs. They do seem to outmanoeuvre and move around a bit so it's not far off that they can defend themselves with evades in this fight, and only make an occasional attack when they win the strike rank.

I for one have never understood the lure of adventuring in Middle Earth, the novels are good, but I'm not the biggest fan of the setting. I've always seen it as mostly a mindless fighting setting were the main politic and magical game takes place among a bunch of named characters that you don't get to play. Play during the war of the Jewels could be interesting though.
But even if you are just doing mindless combat, it can become quite fun with the legend system.

 

[torus]

I think Legend should be an ideal replacement for MERP-style games (i.e. the MERP setting), and an improvement over the MERP system. And I don't think it would be too hard to do.

Also I share your feelings about The One Ring. Probably it's the best system ever for re-enacting what happens in the books, but that doesn't sound much fun to me. I like to take the setting and explore it with my own adventures and ideas, not be rigidly constrained within the limits of those the author chose/had time to write.

 

[Dan True]

Aragorn is a Dunedain. His Int and Dex should hit an average of more than 18, So he has 4 combat actions. While the Ringwraiths have a sloppy evade (I think we can agree on this?) and a lower Dex/Int average, giving them each 2 CA. Aragorn uses the terrain and his superior speed to use the outmanoeuvre action, so only the Ring Wraiths who beat his opposed evade can attack him. Lets assume his Evade is 90% (which is low according to the movie). Only 1 of them would face him each round, and he would be up 1 CA. The Wraith Would attack, He would attack (the wraiths seem to parry for some odd reason in the movie), and then he would follow up with his off-hand using a torch, and moving away on his last CA.

So the fight in the movie can be easily replicated using the Legend System. The Hobbits would also have a pretty good evade, and while not a good INT on most of them, they would have decent enough Dex scores to get them 3 CAs. They do seem to outmanoeuvre and move around a bit so it's not far off that they can defend themselves with evades in this fight, and only make an occasional attack when they win the strike rank.

You've just proved my point, at least the way I meant it. My point wasn't directly tied to the power-level or survivability of the system, but the whole focus. In Middle Earth it is not realistic, gritty details that decide combats - it has much more to do with bravery, your line of descendance, what name you yell right before you enter the fray etc.

It's not that you can't DO Middle Earth with Legend - it's just that I FEEL ( ) a system like that in no way lends itself to how I feel Middle Earth is working in the books. Heroes don't kick sand in the faces of their enemies for instance - they are waaay to worthy to do stuff like that (the hobbits might, though).

- Dan

 

[Dan True]

Aragorn is a Dunedain. His Int and Dex should hit an average of more than 18, So he has 4 combat actions. While the Ringwraiths have a sloppy evade (I think we can agree on this?) and a lower Dex/Int average, giving them each 2 CA. Aragorn uses the terrain and his superior speed to use the outmanoeuvre action, so only the Ring Wraiths who beat his opposed evade can attack him. Lets assume his Evade is 90% (which is low according to the movie). Only 1 of them would face him each round, and he would be up 1 CA. The Wraith Would attack, He would attack (the wraiths seem to parry for some odd reason in the movie), and then he would follow up with his off-hand using a torch, and moving away on his last CA.

So the fight in the movie can be easily replicated using the Legend System. The Hobbits would also have a pretty good evade, and while not a good INT on most of them, they would have decent enough Dex scores to get them 3 CAs. They do seem to outmanoeuvre and move around a bit so it's not far off that they can defend themselves with evades in this fight, and only make an occasional attack when they win the strike rank.

You've just proved my point, at least the way I meant it - might have expressed myself a bit too vague (now I read my comment again, I can see that I in no way expressed what I meant silly me). My point wasn't directly tied to the power-level or survivability of the system, but the whole focus. In Middle Earth it is not realistic, gritty details that decide combats - it has much more to do with bravery, your line of descendance, what name you yell right before you enter the fray etc.

It's not that you can't DO Middle Earth with Legend - it's just that I think a system like that in no way lends itself to how I feel Middle Earth is working in the books. Heroes don't kick sand in the faces of their enemies for instance - they are waaay to worthy to do stuff like that (the hobbits might, though).

- Dan

 

[Mixster]

Aragorn is a Dunedain. His Int and Dex should hit an average of more than 18, So he has 4 combat actions. While the Ringwraiths have a sloppy evade (I think we can agree on this?) and a lower Dex/Int average, giving them each 2 CA. Aragorn uses the terrain and his superior speed to use the outmanoeuvre action, so only the Ring Wraiths who beat his opposed evade can attack him. Lets assume his Evade is 90% (which is low according to the movie). Only 1 of them would face him each round, and he would be up 1 CA. The Wraith Would attack, He would attack (the wraiths seem to parry for some odd reason in the movie), and then he would follow up with his off-hand using a torch, and moving away on his last CA.

So the fight in the movie can be easily replicated using the Legend System. The Hobbits would also have a pretty good evade, and while not a good INT on most of them, they would have decent enough Dex scores to get them 3 CAs. They do seem to outmanoeuvre and move around a bit so it's not far off that they can defend themselves with evades in this fight, and only make an occasional attack when they win the strike rank.

You've just proved my point, at least the way I meant it. My point wasn't directly tied to the power-level or survivability of the system, but the whole focus. In Middle Earth it is not realistic, gritty details that decide combats - it has much more to do with bravery, your line of descendance, what name you yell right before you enter the fray etc.

It's not that you can't DO Middle Earth with Legend - it's just that I feel a system like that in no way lends itself to how I feel Middle Earth is working in the books. Heroes don't kick sand in the faces of their enemies for instance - they are waaay to worthy to do stuff like that (the hobbits might, though).

- Dan

Legend can easily do that, it's all in the combat action system, heroic abilities, hero points, and having high skills. Aragorn would be quite the fighter, with quite the stats, and quite the heroic abilities/hero points.

I don't see the problem at all, and I've never seen legend as that gritty a system, a character that is relatively well of in skills with a couple of hero points (which Aragorn would have in Tons), can easily take great numbers of enemies and be a heroic dude.

This is why I like the system, it lets you play any role.

Also, I think you have the books mistaken with the movies, which are IMO much more epicly themed than the books. Aragorn (in the books) fancies hiding and avoiding combat, as well as disguising himself, and don't tell anybody who he is untill they get to Rivendell. I think that is how you'd do it in an RQ campaign if you were followed by invulnerable ring Wraiths.

 

[cthulhudarren]

Thanks for the replies. Honestly I don't think you have to play in Middle Earth like in the books. Or it could be made into something like basic magic, where instead of "bladesharp", invoking the name of [forget the name] against creatures of darkness gives you +5% combat style for 3 rounds.

I have looked over The One Ring rules and I think they're a bit to abstracted for me. But the weariness mechanic would be something to try and adapt (and base on POW) though. My players would certainly not like it though, thinking it is a forced rail-roady mechanic to make you act in a certain way.

I think hero points would help with the heroic stuff that Legend doesn't make easy in combat.

Sorcery would stay in but not be available to players, at least not at the start of the campaign. Common magic would not be common at all. Spirit Magic I suppose would be out. Divine Magic doesn't seem to fit the setting either. Healers and alchemy seem to be a good fit though. What Legend magic system best fits an herbalist healer?

The idea would be for a 4th age campaign so all the big names are out of the picture. Having a campaign story is a bit more difficult. Retaking Moria? Carving out civilization in Eriador?

 

[Dan True]

Legend can easily do that, it's all in the combat action system, heroic abilities, hero points, and having high skills. Aragorn would be quite the fighter, with quite the stats, and quite the heroic abilities/hero points.

I don't see the problem at all, and I've never seen legend as that gritty a system, a character that is relatively well of in skills with a couple of hero points (which Aragorn would have in Tons), can easily take great numbers of enemies and be a heroic dude.

Also, I think you have the books mistaken with the movies, which are IMO much more epicly themed than the books. Aragorn (in the books) fancies hiding and avoiding combat, as well as disguising himself, and don't tell anybody who he is untill they get to Rivendell. I think that is how you'd do it in an RQ campaign if you were followed by invulnerable ring Wraiths.

Yes in the start, but the combats that are explained are much more epic-focussed - especially in the Silmarillion. In that universe, relatively unproven fighters (like Turin Turambar was in the beginning) can do great things simply because they're destined to do it, and because their father was the friend of some elven king, within limits ofc.

But again, I'm not saying you can't - I'm just saying that I don't feel it lends itself well to the system, and I wouldn't do it - which essentially is what the original post was about, as I see it. Then again I probably would never play a ME campaign anyway.

Sorcery would stay in but not be available to players, at least not at the start of the campaign. Common magic would not be common at all. Spirit Magic I suppose would be out. Divine Magic doesn't seem to fit the setting either. Healers and alchemy seem to be a good fit though. What Legend magic system best fits an herbalist healer?

Hm, sorcery is probably the best system for it, though I would probably keep magic on a very ad-hoc and story-related basis. At least until you have a good feel for the workings of the campaign if you wan't to introduce it for use by players.

The idea would be for a 4th age campaign so all the big names are out of the picture. Having a campaign story is a bit more difficult. Retaking Moria? Carving out civilization in Eriador?

4th age seems to be the central age for ME campaigns, sometimes mid 3rd age. There's plenty of opportunity for adventures in 4th age, so go for it.

 

[torus]

4th age seems to be the central age for ME campaigns, sometimes mid 3rd age. There's plenty of opportunity for adventures in 4th age, so go for it.

4th age never appealed to me; like turning up at a party when everyone is leaving. Might as well move on yourself. Surely the whole point about adventuring in M-e is the omnipresent threat of the Shadow, and uncovering and resisting its sinister influence.

I once ran a MERP campaign set in 2940, with the PCs involved in various actions on the fringes of the lead up to war. They had to infiltrate/attack two or three of the Necromancer's outposts in Rhovanion, prior to the White Council's attack on Dol Guldur. It was great fun, even involved some 'mission briefing' style encounters with Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel etc, and nobody gave a monkeys about how they should all really be moping about wearily!

 

[danskmacabre]

I think 4th age is a pretty ideal age for adventuring for various reasons:

1: You're not bound by what's going on in the books. Use the world framework, which is rich and detailed and put in your own stuff.

2: Who said everyone's gone? Just coz Sauron is dead, doen't mean all the Orcs have fallen over and died. Also he had penty of commanders, other evil forces not necessarily directly loyal to him. There could still be dragons kicking about, Balrogs, evil sorcerors etc..
It doesn't have to mean ALL the Elves etc scarpered off to the grey havens. There' plenty of examples where Tolkien says one thing and then contradicts it later in another book.

3: Who says Sauron was totally destroyed? Tolkien wanted to write another book after ROTK, but died before he got around to it. Maybe he's still about, but much weaker.

 

[Richard]

I remember running my MERP game (Not that was a fine Box Set cover illustration!) campaign many years back in the 4th Age for just the reasons Dansk describes. I read the whole set of Tolkien books at 13/14 years old sick in bed from Hobbit through through Lord of the Schwings to the Sillymarillion in a matter of days. Loved them (Sillymarillion apart - yawn!) but never went back. Founding the Aberdeen Uny D&D Society it quickly became apparent that there were those to whom the whole thing was practically a religion and bickered incessantly, chapter and verse, over the tiniest details. Frankly I couldn't be arsed arguing the toss over book trivia. Better to have some Orcs and a Wraith or two still running about and wory about them.

Now I would do it differently. I would just set the game in the middle of the 3rd age and toss out the events of the book. Use the setting and to Mordor with the canon! If Legless and Dimly peg it tough. What happens happens.

 

[danskmacabre]

Yes in the start, but the combats that are explained are much more epic-focussed - especially in the Silmarillion. In that universe, relatively unproven fighters (like Turin Turambar was in the beginning) can do great things simply because they're destined to do it, and because their father was the friend of some elven king, within limits of.
But again, I'm not saying you can't - I'm just saying that I don't feel it lends itself well to the system, and I wouldn't do it - which essentially is what the original post was about, as I see it. Then again I probably would never play a ME campaign anyway.

The Silmarillion was written more like a Bible or Encyclopedia. Even Christopher Tolkien pretty much said it wasn't an easy read. it was just a collection of JRR Tolkien's work put tgether in one book by Christopher.
So it's not a great example to use on how to portray a gaming style for an RPG.
We have to remember that LOTR itself was whilst not a first in it's Genre, was very pioneering in modern fantasy. I'm quite sure that Tolkien had no idea that it would have such a dramatic influence on the development of RPGs and Fantasy in general.
BUT it has, most Fantasy RPGs are loosely based on LOTR in some form or another. Trying to emulate Tolkien's writing style in an RPG IMO makes for a very stylised, abstract RPG, which of course "The One ring" RPG is. But To my tastes, it just doesn't work.
I'm sure loads of people will love it and I love to read the background they have created, but as an RPG, I think Legend would do a great job of being the engine for a LOTR RPG setting.
In many ways LOTR WAS vey gritty, getting injured in LOTR was really serious. Take DnD for example (regardless of what Gygax said, LOTR had a huge influence on DnD) and by the time you hit around 9th level, even dying is no big deal, which in LOTR (for the most part) is not something you come back from.

Of course all that is IMO only and I totally respect other people's views, I'm not saying MY views is 100% right for everyone. so those who like The one ring RPG, then enjoy.

 

[Lord Kruge]

The One Ring is a very good game, however, it's a very focused game.

It is not an immersive game focused on emulating the world of Middle Earth like MERP was.
It is really a narrative game focused on emulating the style of the adventures in The Hobbit.

It's very abstracted, which is what you usually get with a game that uses narrative mechanics to emulate a literary source (similar to SIFRP).

If MERP is Runequest, then TOR is Heroquest mixed with WFRP3.