Interface between artifical grav and real/no grav?

Woas said:
Your 'floating' down a hall way that has no gravity. Down the hall the doorway to the bridge is open and you can see right in there. You decide to check it out so kick off and sail down the hall. As you pass through the threshold of the doorway into the bridge you are hit with 1G of arto-grav. Apparently the bridge was still under arto-grav. What would happen to you? Just fall to the ground and feel 'normal' again? Get some sort of motion sickness/reverse vertigo?
I think the motion sickness would be already in place or dealt with since you'd be in 0-G to start with... Your tummy might spin a little and your inner ear need to readjust itself, but that's covered by 0-G maneuvering and Vacc suit training.

When you're exploring a derelict you probably ought to have some sort of protocol to detect changes in G in the space ahead of you: there might be a more than 1G differential, and you don't know which way is set to "up", so crossing a threshold unawares *can* have fatal consequences. Detecting that the "grav plates" (or whatever) are powered is a good start, and I'd imagine most vacc suits' sensor packs can detect the lateral bleed off arti-G systems.
 
Oaty - I got a bit wordy and technical, so to summarize "inertial damping" is "gravitics" - you have to mess with what it means to have mass in that environment no matter what 'handwavium' you throw into the mix to explain how it's possible.

I know it's perhaps hairsplitting, but it's important in this context; on a spacecraft people do not experience gravity, even if they do find themselves exerting a force on the deck. Gravity is a function of mass and it takes planetoid sized masses to have a gravitational field of the order of 'Earth Standard', in which case objects within that field are accelerated at about 10 m/s/s and thus exert, onto whatever the local 'floor' is, a force of close to ten newtons for ever kilogramme of their mass.

In order to simulate gravity, then, you need to create a force which will act perpendicular to whatever you want as your 'floor' and accelerate objects towards it. We know of no way to do this but various sci-fi explanations have been created over the years and no matter what their specifics are they all would have to amount to "create a localized field of force" or "alter the properties of matter within the field".

I assume you can see why it's precisely the same thing required for avoiding 'crew paté' in the event of "sudden, unplanned acceleration"?
 
No its not the same thing,

What you are saying is gravity is inertia,
but inertia is a byproduct of gravity, its the draw of gravity that creates the inertia, but gravity creates that draw,

Now trying to use gravity as a form of inertial damping would be dangerous, as I've already said, if that field becomes out of sync with the ships (which would be easy to do with damage) inertia at high speeds you are at the very least looking at a dead crew,

But if inertial damping was a field that simply nullified inertia its not likely to tear/shear you apart, as would a gravity based system of tug-of-war

Has far as I know inertial damping doesn't just counter inertia, but neutralizes it, (hence the term damping and not countering)

(there is a difference, think of this as "sound" you could either try blocking it out with anti-sound, or block it by absorbing it via ear plugs)

if inertial damping was subsumed as a part of the normal gravtiy system why mention it as a seperate system?
 
Contra-gravity is another term that is used. I think that describes Gaidheal's version better.

Contra-gravity is similar to anti gravity but it used to counter act gravity instead of just nullifying it.

But it may be just the choice of words and the way we hear them :)

Dave Chase
 
Dave Chase said:
Contra-gravity is another term that is used. I think that describes Gaidheal's version better.

Contra-gravity is similar to anti gravity but it used to counter act gravity instead of just nullifying it.

But it may be just the choice of words and the way we hear them :)

Dave Chase

No, not the same at all, Contra-gravity is the same as Anti-gravity,
not the same as inertial damping,
 
Oaty - you are dead wrong, inertia is from mass - it is the resistance of an object to a change in its velocity. Sorry to be blunt but there's not really any other way to put it.

Any attempt to manipulate inertia is either some sort of localized forcefield (in the true sense of the word) or a localized field changing the nature of matter (specifically mass) and both amount to the same thing - acceleration is unchanged by anything external to the field and remains exactly what you wish it to be (e.g. mimicing a 1 g0 gravitational field).
 
Gaidheal said:
Oaty - you are dead wrong, inertia is from mass - it is the resistance of an object to a change in its velocity. Sorry to be blunt but there's not really any other way to put it.

Any attempt to manipulate inertia is either some sort of localized forcefield (in the true sense of the word) or a localized field changing the nature of matter (specifically mass) and both amount to the same thing - acceleration is unchanged by anything external to the field and remains exactly what you wish it to be (e.g. mimicing a 1 g0 gravitational field).

No, inertia can be applied to mass, but mass does not create inertia,
it creates gravity, and gravity can cause inertia via attraction,

Gravity is not inertia, its a field of force that attracts,
but saying gravity is the same as inertia, is like saying a magnet is the same gravity,

its attraction, and via attraction, inertia
 
Err, no. You're wrong.

Inertia is an effect of mass, not gravity. Mass causes gravity - an attractive force between objects which is very, very, very weak. Mass also results in a phenomenon called inertia, the tendency of any object to resist a change in its velocity which is directly proportional to the mass of that object, just as gravity is (since they are both functions of mass).

Sorry, but your understanding of the physics is incorrect.
 
Incidentally.... most physicists think gravitational force and electromagnetic force are indeed the same thing, in essence; welcome to "Unified Force Theory" [AKA "Unified Field Theory"] ;¬)

(Noone's worked out how, yet, though)
 
Gaidheal said:
Err, no. You're wrong.

Inertia is an effect of mass, not gravity. Mass causes gravity - an attractive force between objects which is very, very, very weak. Mass also results in a phenomenon called inertia, the tendency of any object to resist a change in its velocity which is directly proportional to the mass of that object, just as gravity is (since they are both functions of mass).

Sorry, but your understanding of the physics is incorrect.

Is it?, explain it too me,

How does mass create Inertia?

Mass = gravity
Mass = resistance to inertia

Right?,

Mass = inertia? (its resistance to inertia?)

no,
Mass creates gravity
Gravity creates inertia

it doesn't matter that Mass is resistance to inertia, we are talking about Gravity, and not the resistance of that body of Gravity
 
Gaidheal said:
Incidentally.... most physicists think gravitational force and electromagnetic force are indeed the same thing, in essence; welcome to "Unified Force Theory" [AKA "Unified Field Theory"] ;¬)

(Noone's worked out how, yet, though)

Dude, everything is electromagnetic force
 
LOL

No, not as currently framed, it isn't. :¬) [everything EM]

As for explain it to you, I'm sorry but you need a Physics primer if you really want a level of undersanding or you can take my word for it if you don't really want to go and (perhaps relearn?) learn secondary level physics.

In either cases, "it just does" is how mass creates inertia. The real answer, if you want to be more confused is that there is no inertia, per se; it's not a separate force or property, as such, it's a simple result of having mass (I.E. 'existing', to all intents and purposes for a layman). It is why even in 'zero-g' a thousand kilogramme mass still takes a lot of effort to get moving, will continue to move with that vector until acted on by another force and will, consequently, crush the bloke on the other side of the room who tries to stop the "weightless" large object.
 
Oaty_bars said:
no,
Mass creates gravity
Gravity creates inertia

it doesn't matter that Mass is resistance to inertia, we are talking about Gravity, and not the resistance of that body of Gravity

You do need mass to get gravity yes (Ignoring any grav field generators SF may allow)

But you do not need gravity to get inertia. Inertia is a mass's resistance to acceleration it is a property of mass and movement.

LBH
 
Actually, you need mass to get inertia and gravity and furthermore you get inertia and gravity whenever you have mass. ;¬)

I'm going to post in good faith what I hope will be a post that clears up a few ideas about this topic and amounts to something of a "primer" on mass and the 'laws of motion'.

Any 'physical object' that you can interact with has mass, this mass is directly related to how many atoms make up the object, what the 'atomic weight' (bad historical choice of terms, there, by the way) of each atom is and how widely separated the atoms are (this last is density / volume).

All objects (masses) attract each other in the same way that most people are familiar with magnets doing, however, gravity is a very weak force compared to magnetism and the two nuclear forces (which hold atoms together, by the way). This means that only very large masses have easily human-observable gravitational fields - e.g. the glasses on my table are technically attracting each other but that attraction is easily overcome by friction from the polished ceramic (low friction!) surface of my table (and totally overwhelmed by the attraction of the Earth or even the table itself).

All objects also resist changes to their velocity (i.e. they resist acceleration), this is known as 'inertia' but it's not really a separate force or effect, per se, simply part of the nature of mass.

Unless acted on by a force, an object will continue its existing vector (i.e. speed and direction) and the force required to apply a specific acceleration to a given object is directly proportion to the mass of that object, also with a given acceleration and a given force you have an implied mass. => F = m.a

A couple of confusions result from 'layman' usage of these terms, as follows:

"Gravity" is commonly understood as "being pulled down to the floor" and "weight" is used as a synonym of mass (in reality, weight is a force resulting from the acceleration of an object in a gravitational field, towards the centre of that field).

When people talk about "artificial gravity" they tend to mean "some way of making the floor feel like the floor" and this is easily achieved by ensuring a force towards the 'floor' (e.g. rotating a structure and having the 'floor' near the outer part of the structure and set perpendicular to the force).

When people think 'zero-g' they often assume this means 'little or no mass' on a subconscious and intutive level, leading people to mishandle massive moving objects, potentially.

So-called "inertial damping" is actually "acceleration protection" - you need to protect passengers from sudden changes in acceleration that result from manoeuvring or impacts. It's called "inertial damping" because if you were to somehow stop mass from resisting such changes then you could, perhaps, get very small, even functionally zero, forces applied to those masses as a result of the undesired accelerations. The very same theoretical ability would also allow you to, perhaps, create 'artifical gravity' without applying a force (such as by accelerating the object the passengers are in).

In other words: "inertial damping", "gravitics","artificial gravity (in most cases)" and "anti-grav" are all the same basic idea.
 
lastbesthope said:
Oaty_bars said:
no,
Mass creates gravity
Gravity creates inertia

it doesn't matter that Mass is resistance to inertia, we are talking about Gravity, and not the resistance of that body of Gravity

You do need mass to get gravity yes (Ignoring any grav field generators SF may allow)

But you do not need gravity to get inertia. Inertia is a mass's resistance to acceleration it is a property of mass and movement.

LBH

True, but I didn't say contrary :wink:
 
You said "gravity creates inertia" which is untrue and is indeed contrary to "you do not need gravity to get inertia", so, I am calling you on this and hopefully ending this two thread mess.
 
Oaty_bars said:
Gaidheal said:
Sorry, but your understanding of the physics is incorrect.

Is it?, explain it too me,

How does mass create Inertia?

That part is unknown. Inertia is a property of mass. My own opinion is that it's kinda like "resistance caused by space-time itself to any change of state of motion of a mass". Basically, the bigger the dimple an object makes in space-time (due to its mass), the harder it is to move it through the space-time (or stop it moving through it). But that's just my own speculation. Fact is, inertia is not fully understood yet.

Mass = gravity
Mass = resistance to inertia

Right?

Wrong.

Gravity is related to mass and radius. Inertia is a property of mass. Gravity is not mass. "resistance to inertia" is fairly nonsensical - Inertia is itself resistance to change in the state of an object's motion, you can't have resistance to a resistance :).


Mass creates gravity
Gravity creates inertia

Wrong.

Gravity is "generated" by Mass, yes. But Gravity and inertia are not related - mass and inertia are.


I think you need to read some physics texts - your understanding of mass, inertia, and gravity is very flawed.
 
I find that sometimes one needs to insure that everyone is using and meaning the same things when using specific words.

Inertia
Definition: Inertia is the name for the tendency of an object in motion to remain in motion, or an object at rest to remain at rest, unless acted upon by a force. This concept was quantified in Newton's First Law of Motion.

Gravity
Definition as it applies to this conversation
3 a (1): the gravitational attraction of the mass of the earth, the moon, or a planet for bodies at or near its surface (2): a fundamental physical force that is responsible for interactions which occur because of mass between particles, between aggregations of matter (as stars and planets), and between particles (as photons) and aggregations of matter, that is 10-39 times the strength of the strong force, and that extends over infinite distances but is dominant over macroscopic distances especially between aggregations of matter —called also gravitation gravitational force — compare electromagnetism 2a, strong force, weak force b: acceleration of gravity c: specific gravity

(physics) the force of attraction between all masses in the universe; especially the attraction of the earth's mass for bodies near its surface

Mass

noun

1. a quantity of matter forming a body of indefinite shape and size, usually of relatively large size; lump
2. a large quantity or number a mass of bruises
3. bulk; size; magnitude
4. the main or larger part; majority
5. Painting a large area or form of one color, shade, intensity, etc.
6. Pharmacy the paste or plastic combination of drugs from which pills are made
7. Physics the quantity of matter in a body as measured by its inertia; the ratio of force to the acceleration produced by that force: experimentally it is found that the gravitational force on an object is proportional to its mass: abbrev. m

(physics) the property of a body that causes it to have weight in a gravitational field


Dave Chase
 
Gaidheal said:
big snip

In other words: "inertial damping", "gravitics","artificial gravity (in most cases)" and "anti-grav" are all the same basic idea.

Assumption,

Yes it would be fair to say gravitics, artificial gravity and anti-grav could be related,

But inertial damping could using a different system,

Gravity creates inertia via attraction, its the attraction that creates the inertia, in the same way a magnet creates the inertia that draws a piece of metal,

But you can't say that a magnet is drawing the metal via its mass/gravity
it gives the metal inertia due to its attraction, but its the same,

Attraction creates the inertia, not its mass
 
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