INT question

[Darklord]

Hey Everyone,

I got a Player that has me laughing. And I would like some shared insight if people are willing.

The player is new to my team, nice guy.

We are playing RQ in a home brewed World. He is a Wizard (sorcerer). His favourite thing to do is raise his INT and POW. Mostly because of the skill bonuses. Sadly, this is sort of behaviour is his pattern.

I like players that Play. I don't mind power gaming at all. But I am into players that act out a roll, for the plus or negative of it. Those are the entertaining games.

I have added some blocks. Aggressive use of the Enhanced Characteristic (INT/POW) will cause damage. Then there is an addictive element. And finally, in my grasp of the game, if you have a 11 INT, I tell the PC they have a 110 IQ. So if he starts off with a 22, and maxes out his spell he can end up with a 38 INT, I expect the PC to do their best and Play that INT of 38. AND, how does that crazy INT talk to Joe and Jane Average INT... LOL

The player in question just wants the Skill boost. When I asked him if he could play that, he was surprised that I brought it up. I know his previous GM and he lives character driven PC's, not Munchkins.

I am looking for some clever ways to directly and indirectly hamper him, without pulling out curses and crazy magic.

Thanks!

 

[taxboy]

Hey Everyone,

I got a Player that has me laughing. And I would like some shared insight if people are willing.

The player is new to my team, nice guy.

We are playing RQ in a home brewed World. He is a Wizard (sorcerer). His favourite thing to do is raise his INT and POW. Mostly because of the skill bonuses. Sadly, this is sort of behaviour is his pattern.

I like players that Play. I don't mind power gaming at all. But I am into players that act out a roll, for the plus or negative of it. Those are the entertaining games.

I have added some blocks. Aggressive use of the Enhanced Characteristic (INT/POW) will cause damage. Then there is an addictive element. And finally, in my grasp of the game, if you have a 11 INT, I tell the PC they have a 110 IQ. So if he starts off with a 22, and maxes out his spell he can end up with a 38 INT, I expect the PC to do their best and Play that INT of 38. AND, how does that crazy INT talk to Joe and Jane Average INT... LOL

The player in question just wants the Skill boost. When I asked him if he could play that, he was surprised that I brought it up. I know his previous GM and he lives character driven PC's, not Munchkins.

I am looking for some clever ways to directly and indirectly hamper him, without pulling out curses and crazy magic.

Thanks!

Mate, how about talking to him about your concerns and asking him to think up some cool limitations - to get his buyin?

 

[Simulacrum]

Maybe have him make a Peristence roll to focus on mundane matters during the spell's duration?

Also i think a lot of people here may nerf the Enhance Characteristic spells a bit. Which could be simpler, if less fun than pushing a RP problem.

Icame up with a similar problem with an NPC using enchance CHA. The skill bonus gained doesn't quite describe the bizarre presence of a human with +17 CHA (who is technically god-like).

 

[Redcrow]

I agree with taxboy. Try talking to the player and discuss your concerns and see if you can work together to come up with a mutually agreeable solution. IME if the GM just starts throwing out constant roadblocks to reel in an abused ability that they initially allowed it can breed some resentment from the player who only sees that their favorite ability is suddenly thwarted at every turn. But if you sit down with the player and explain your position and work together to come up with a mutually agreeable solution things will seem less arbitrary and vindictive. YMMV.

 

[Dan True]

What about keeping the limitations to characteristics from generation? I.e. no one can have above 22 POW or some such. I have though about doing this, as I think the enhance spell is ... a bit too much. In my game I am planning on handling it by also handing out potions/wands with the spell to my NPCs, but that really only fits because I'm playing Eberron.

Enhance(int) and Enhance(dex) really make for some insane fights.. the last fight my players was in, ended in the first round of combat because they all got 5 CAs ...

- Dan

 

[Fonso]

I usually do something similar.

When a player cast an enhancement spell, the bonus he wins is always active. Then, an enhancement of +15 STR means the minimal strength he can use is 16 (1 from himself + 15 from the spell). If he is not very careful, he will break delicate things.

The other spells of enhancement work the same. An enhancement DEX limits careful handings (healing, mechanism, etc) or an enhancement CHA prevents to be unnoticed. Etc.

 

[Mixster]

The other spells of enhancement work the same. An enhancement DEX limits careful handings (healing, mechanism, etc) or an enhancement CHA prevents to be unnoticed. Etc.

Why does having a godlike Dexterity limit how carefully you can handle things? I'd think that the more dextrous you are, the better you are at carefully handling something.

The Cha and Str seems reasonable. As with SIZ there are also slight penalties to being big in RQ.

---
Anyway, it gets really retarded when you use shapechange and then you buff those stats with enhance (STR + SIZ) If you for example turn into a Slarg (or whatever those lizardmen are called) from Monster Coliseum, and then enhance STR + SIZ you can potentially get a STR+SIZ of 100. IIRC that's a damage modifier of +2d12. But at just base duration and magnitude that is 3 MP. Which is like a 4th of your resources.

Sure Sorcerers in RQ have an "I win" button, but they can only press it 4 times a day, after which they are just guys who spend around 150 skill points on having done something the other 4 times. So I'd say, let the guy have it. It's not terribly Min/Maxed to be effective 3-4 times a day. So until he finds a way of getting more magic points (perchance through the Tap/Restore combo), I'd say let him have it.

If you want to help the player Min/max tell him that spirit magic works all day, and Divine Magic can deliver "I wins" for just one spell.

 

[PhilHibbs]

Sure Sorcerers in RQ have an "I win" button, but they can only press it 4 times a day, after which they are just guys who spend around 150 skill points on having done something the other 4 times.

With enhanced POW, a sorcerer can do much more than that. Even without, it only costs 2MP to wrack someone to death at range, 3MP to get a whole group (so long as they don't get to you before they are taken out).

 

[Mixster]

Sure Sorcerers in RQ have an "I win" button, but they can only press it 4 times a day, after which they are just guys who spend around 150 skill points and a good POW score on having done something the other 4 times.

With enhanced POW, a sorcerer can do much more than that. Even without, it only costs 2MP to wrack someone to death at range, 3MP to get a whole group (so long as they don't get to you before they are taken out).

Yeah, 2MP which is at best 1/9th of your resources forces your opponent to make a resist roll or he will die in a manner of rounds unless he kills you first. I fail to see why this is terribly powerful?

Whether you get extra MP from enhanced POW can be discussed. If you do it is one of the best spells you can have around.

 

[alex_greene]

I am looking for some clever ways to directly and indirectly hamper him, without pulling out curses and crazy magic.

Why? You wouldn't hamper some muscle dork who wants to boost his STR and CON to those levels.

 

[Darklord]

Hey! Thanks guys!

@taxboy/Redcrow
Mate, how about talking to him about your concerns and asking him to think up some cool limitations - to get his buyin?

I took him to coffee a couple of weeks ago and we talked about his PC. Talked for about 2 hours about how I liked my games, I wanted players and not focused munckins. I encouraged him to play his PC and avoid the power rush. We talked about how I liked things, how he liked things and I thought we came to an understanding...

@Simulacrum
Maybe have him make a Peristence roll to focus on mundane matters during the spell's duration?
The elegance of the rules... didn't even cross my mind! Great idea.

@Dan True
Enhance(int) and Enhance(dex) really make for some insane fights.. the last fight my players was in, ended in the first round of combat because they all got 5 CAs ...

I don't mind these sorts of things. I try to cap my PC's stats around 28 (over the long haul that is), but when I get into 35's and above, I start to think they have pushed to hard. At that point I expect more from them. A great deal more. Also does not mean they can not find other people or beings with that potential. Evil parties destined to stop them in their tracks.

The other spells of enhancement work the same. An enhancement DEX limits careful handings (healing, mechanism, etc) or an enhancement CHA prevents to be unnoticed. Etc.

I have been thinking on this one a fair bit. If the PC casts the spell once a day, then I see no long term problem. If they cast it mutliple times, I start to cause damage to them. Once the spell is spent, fine motor skills are half, they have to heal across their body, and eventually joint and muscle pain. It takes about 24 hours for the body to heal. I refuse to let a heal spell solve the problem, although am hard pressed to stop a Divine healing. I do the same with Str users. The first few times you get a free pass, but after that you suffer joint pain, muscle spasms.

Now just to explain, I don't really like doing these things, but If I don't my players will all have stupid high stats... or I start to do things the way some of the other gents have mentioned. I don't mind Players getting powerful. I just get annoyed a the one trick pony.

@PhilHibbs
With enhanced POW, a sorcerer can do much more than that. Even without, it only costs 2MP to wrack someone to death at range, 3MP to get a whole group (so long as they don't get to you before they are taken out).

I thought on this. Even if the Sorcerer gets a POW of 48 (from 22) they still have to wait for the MP to get that high. As far as I am concerned, you have to charge up to the 48 from what you currently have. So if it takes hours to charge fully, the spell may have warn off, and all that MP flows away.

@alex_greene
Why? You wouldn't hamper some muscle dork who wants to boost his STR and CON to those levels.

Naw, I like to punish everyone equally horribly. =-)

Thank you all!!

 

[PhilHibbs]

@PhilHibbs
With enhanced POW, a sorcerer can do much more than that. Even without, it only costs 2MP to wrack someone to death at range, 3MP to get a whole group (so long as they don't get to you before they are taken out).

I thought on this. Even if the Sorcerer gets a POW of 48 (from 22) they still have to wait for the MP to get that high. As far as I am concerned, you have to charge up to the 48 from what you currently have. So if it takes hours to charge fully, the spell may have warn off, and all that MP flows away.

If their POW is 22 (which is impossible*) then they can't enhance it beyond 44. If they have 18 and enhance it to 36, then it will take 6 hours for their MPs to generate up to their new maximum, so yes, you have to use Duration and re-cast it. But that takes a skill of 90 and the first thing that I did when I started my game was to halve the bonus from Enhance spells, so the sorceress in my game can only get +8 to INT and POW.

* which doesn't mean that it can't be done, of course

 

[PhilHibbs]

You could hobble the Enhance POW abuse by saying that you can't re-cast an equal magnitude without dropping the first one. So every time they re-cast a spell they have to put one more manipulation point into Magnitude than the last time, and before long they are spending more MPs re-casting the spell than they are regenerating. If that is the only spell that a starting character with 18 INT and POW is keeping up, then he gets up to 36 MP after two re-casts and about 8 hours. After 23 hours he is re-casting it with maximum Magnitude and then the spell drops 36 minutes later and all the MPs are lost.

18 INT and POW is an extreme case. With INT and POW both enhanced, it grinds to a halt only 1 hour earlier due to the extra manipulation point available from the 16 extra skill points.

So even with this restriction, it's still very powerful.

With my halved effect, it runs out after 18 hours, and 27 is the highest that POW can go.

 

[Richard]

Possibly the simplest thing to do, as in RQ3, is to simply not have it available as a spell. Mind you POW and Magaic Points worked a little differently.

 

[PhilHibbs]

Possibly the simplest thing to do, as in RQ3, is to simply not have it available as a spell. Mind you POW and Magaic Points worked a little differently.

Banning the most common Malkioni religion (the Hrestoli Church) is a bit harsh. But that's Glorantha, which is supposed to be high in magic, so for non-Gloranthan settings then that is reasonable.

 

[Darklord]

I had a long talk with my party... my other party last night. About the 'player' in question. It is funny seeing a room full of Canadians sitting around a table trying to not bash a fellow, we all like, who irks us because of his lust for anything other then Character development.

I think that is what makes me angry, and yes it is anger... I have a team that wants to interact, they work with NPC's, they make friends, and allies. Although not a perfect team, they are fun to gm.

Then we bring in a new player, and he nukes my Zen. As I am certain everyone's life is similar, my life is pretty high pressure and gaming is my booster rocket away from stupid people and computers. When I get players like this... long exhale... count to 10... burn a candle... meditate on puppies...

I guess I am retraining a new player.

I wanted to thank everyone for posting. Great ideas, and conversation. I will muse what I have read so far. I will try to post my outcome to my questions. I am certain I will be back :wink:

Thanks again!

 

[Dan True]

I guess I am retraining a new player.

Exactly. But you don't really ahve to be subtle about it, in my opinion. It is always a good idea to have a clearly defined theme for a campaign, so you can be pretty open "this campaign is about interaction and character development. If you wish to learn, we will abide with you - if not, I'll give you a call the next time I start a campaign".

- Dan

 

[Mixster]

I guess I am retraining a new player.

Exactly. But you don't really ahve to be subtle about it, in my opinion. It is always a good idea to have a clearly defined theme for a campaign, so you can be pretty open "this campaign is about interaction and character development. If you wish to learn, we will abide with you - if not, I'll give you a call the next time I start a campaign".

- Dan

+1

Although, are you certain he is not into developing his character? The fact that he has powerful abilities and a good grasp of the rules does not necessarily mean he dislikes developing his character. I, personally, like to build strong characters that use the rules well. However, that is usually a side "brain-gymnastic" thing for me while I like to focus on roleplaying the character. And I've been called "Munchkin" multiple times, though mostly in jokes.

So what I'm saying is, don't fear the Min/Maxer, fear the guy who doesn't roleplay.

 

[Greg Smith]

Although, are you certain he is not into developing his character? The fact that he has powerful abilities and a good grasp of the rules does not necessarily mean he dislikes developing his character. I, personally, like to build strong characters that use the rules well.

I agree. I like to play interesting charcters who are flawed in some way. But I do like them to be very good at what they are good at. I do sometimes push the system to its limit, but I still roleplay my character.

 

[alex_greene]

So one person can game the system, and wants to try out the limitations of what it can do. He can do some pretty impressive things. Fair enough.

"Game balance" does not mean "nerf the minmaxers so they're the same as everybody else." It means "everybody gets a chance to shine."

Give him his chance to do his thing, but only when appropriate. Everybody else gets their chance to throw the dice; this problem player is no different. It's his INT and POW that bother you, because of all the characteristics, those two characteristics pretty much scream "holier than thou" when they're much greater than everybody else's INT and POW. You expect big muscly STR and wiry DEX, and high CON from people used to living in the outdoors a lot, but INT and POW - people just can't stand smart, lucky people and mutter darkly about "taking him down a peg or two."

Give him his chance. If he gets tired of passing every single die roll, maybe he might try it out with his normal INT and POW to pose a challenge some time. But don't push it. Resentment sucks, when you're being the one guy on the entire table being resented. And the resentment stays, long after the genius picks up his toys and goes home, because every failed INT and POW roll your guys get after ostracising this poor pariah will end up getting blamed on your absent erstwhile player. "Bah! I'll bet that Mister Genius would have aced that puzzle, and then looked down his nose at us!" "Yeah, but he's not here, and you scored a fumble, and you're all dead." *irasci omnes*