Core 2008 1e Clarification: Expert Programs, Erik's Gun and non-INT/EDU based skills (page 93 vs 102)

[Yenaldlooshi]

On Expert Programs, Page 93 states; "the Expert program only allows the character to make Intelligence or Education-based checks.."

Yet on the entry for Intelligent Weapon over on page 102 it gives an example called Erik's Custom Gun which states:


How is it that Erik can just ignore the INT/EDU only restriction for Expert software in this example? No, there is no mention of Neural Interface of any kind.
Was this example just a mistake or am I missing some logic here?

 

[Vormaerin]

Since that example went away in later versions, I'm going to vote for "mistake".

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Robots can do it.
Ships can do it.
Presumably you can do it too, but not with a laptop.

MgT1 High Guard, p60:


MgT2, CSC2016, p72:


MgT2, Core2022, p165:

 

[AnotherDilbert]

If I can discern a logic in this, it's that the computer has to be integrated, built-in, you can't just connect a bunch of laptops to get infinite skills.

 

[Vormaerin]

Those things are not what he is talking about? That's a device acting with a skill. That is obviously allowed. The part he was questioning is the part where the computerized gun gives a bonus to the non neural interfaced user.

The Fire Control program is the only example that is roughly comparable and that isn't really the same thing, unless you think Traveller turrets work like those on the Millenium Falcon (which I don't).

 

[AnotherDilbert]

General Rule:

Core'22, p111:
Expert software packages mimic skills. A Traveller using Expert may make a skill check as if they had the skill at the software’s Bandwidth -1. Only INT and EDU-based checks can be attempted. If a Traveller already has the skill, then Expert grants DM+1 to their check.

which I have interpreted as:

• A Traveller using Expert may make a skill check as if they had the skill at the software’s Bandwidth -1. Only INT and EDU-based checks can be attempted.
• If a Traveller already has the skill, then Expert grants DM+1 to their check.

But of course, if you want help with jumping, you can't use a standard laptop. A gun with an expert system built into the sights can help you with gun attacks, but can't grant you the skill if you don't already have it.


Specific Rule:

Core'22, p113:
EXPERT SKILLS
Having a tool or weapon with the appropriate Expert program and an Intelligent Interface can grant a Traveller DM+1 to relevant checks. However, the program can only help if the difficulty of the task is less than a certain value. In combat, add up any negative DMs to determine the effective difficulty of the attack or action.

A neural Link allows you to use any computer to control your body, to gain new physical skills. Nothing is said about it being needed to gain a DM+1 bonus.

CSC'23, p60:
NEURAL LINK
A neural link is a more complex form of neural comm. In addition to providing all the capabilities of a neural comm available at its Tech Level, it allows the computer system access to the Traveller’s nervous system, allowing a connected wafer jack (see page 61) or computer system to grant physical skills in addition to those based on INT or EDU. A Traveller must connect the neural link to a computer system or wafer jack containing appropriate Expert software to use the skill.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Sorry, I should have used MgT1 sources, but I don't have many PDFs, and I can't be bothered to search the books and type the quotes.

 

[Vormaerin]

Ah. That's a reasonable interpretation. Not how I read it, but that does make sense particularly with the quote on pg 113.

I will say that the pg 113 rule is tedious in actual play (that guy's dodge skill is high enough that you don't get the +1 because now the negative modifier is too high, but his partner isn't that good, so you do get it against him..), not to mention the 'hey, you only get a bonus to do the tasks you probably don't need a bonus for' effect.

 

[Vormaerin]

It does leave open the question of just what can you integrate a computer with to improve your ability. Cyberpunk games usually do require some kind of cybernetic interface for computerized weapons to help you out. As you say, 'you can't just have a have lap top'. But the tool or weapon should need some means of actually doing something more than just being a laptop built into your device.

Can I have an intelligent knife that somehow improves my skill at stabbing things? How exactly is it doing that? What is the intelligent rifle doing if it doesn't have any means of giving direct feedback to the user? Some tools, like vehicles with autopilots, are easy to visualize how they are helping. Others, not so much. It is a lot simpler if the neural interface is required for the tool to affect your physical skills.

 

[Condottiere]

With a spring blade - the knife won't kill friendlies.

Sensors tell you where to stab unfriendlies, and if you need to exert more force.

 

[Vormaerin]

So adding computer/1 adds all these miniaturized sensors? I can think of lots of things I could do with those that have nothing to do with stabbing things....

 

[AnotherDilbert]

CSC'23, p67 says that a Comp/0 is microscopic and costs around Cr 30 at TL-11.

Intelligent Weapon costs Cr 1000 at TL-11.

It's not the computing power you're paying for.


If you want to do something more interesting with the intelligent weapon, you are of course free to do so.

 

[Condottiere]

It's infected with malware.

It keeps urging you to stab your so called comrades.

 

[Yenaldlooshi]

Guys, I was only asking about Core First Edition from 2008. I only WISH my group was using 2020+ versions! I am dealing with "legacy" rules. I am just hoping my support license from you all has not expired.

 

[Vormaerin]

The rules are pretty similar, but not identical. Not going to say you can't get answers specific to earlier editions of the rules, but the number of people with the resources to answer them is significantly reduced.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Guys, I was only asking about Core First Edition from 2008. I only WISH my group was using 2020+ versions! I am dealing with "legacy" rules. I am just hoping my support license from you all has not expired.

Yeah, sorry. I only have the Core2008 book in paper, it's much easier to copy from PDFs...

The Expert software text box on p93 says the same as MgT2:

Core2008, p93:
Expert Skills and Aiding Characters
Having a tool or weapon with the appropriate Expert program and an Intelligent Interface can give a character a +1 DM to his checks if he also has the skill in question. However, the program can only help if the difficulty of the task is less than a certain value.

I can't see how a weapon could aim and fire itself without a self-moving mount under the control of the software. It would also need sights with sensors built-in, but that is easier to assume as standard at TL-11.

The gun should not be able to give a DM+1 without Intelligent Interface, but only Intellect is mentioned in the example.


A ship can fly itself with Expert(Pilot) software (Core2008, p146), so Expert software can do DEX tasks, it's just a question of having the necessary sensor and interface equipment.


Referee discretion is needed, but I would rule the example incorrect unless we add a stand that can swivel and aim the gun under computer control. A DM+1 is OK.