Anstett
Emperor Mongoose
And @mavikfelna
There are some rules scattered about and other non-mongoose publications that cover it. Here is how I combined things for our game.
Insurance for ship and cargo and rules for salvage
- Thread starter mavikfelna
- Start date
There are some rules scattered about and other non-mongoose publications that cover it. Here is how I combined things for our game.
Typically insurance is an after-market cost for cargo, but would normally be included in the mortgage costs if you don't own the ship. That would be the same as a person with a car has to carry collision insurance (in the US) so long as a bank owns the title.
Freight is insured separately, and it would be (possibly) in two parts. If you are shipping freight owned by someone else they could buy a policy on the value of the freight for themselves - if you were to lose it they would get paid but you would not get paid your profit (potentially) for transport. If you were to buy the freight on spec then unless you purchased insurance post-sale, then you'd have no insurance on the freight's value if something were to happen to it. Your ship policy would cover damages to the ship, but not the value of the freight itself.
Of course, it's entirely possible that some people would take on extra mortgage costs to cover freight, but that gets a bit complicated and costly. The reason for that is insurance is based on value of what is being insured. A load of steel is less valuable than a load of electronics. So your insurance company would want a higher premium for a higher value cargo. A mortgage payment is flat and set, thus unless your cargo insured value was fixed, it could not pay for more expensive cargos in a way that an insurance company would feel comfortable with - they don't like risk unless they are being compensated for it.
However, if you want to make it very easy, then sure, just assume all ships carry cargo insurance and the premium is part of the mortgage.
boggo2300
Cosmic Mongoose
I don't agree with that, If you have a lease on a Cargo Van or a light truck for example, they will almost always require you to have insurance... BUT ONLY ON THEIR ASSET (IE only the van or truck, not it's cargo) Cargo Insurance is almost always a separate buisiness expense (for cargo ships as well), Tramp freighters when they were more common were usually so much cheaper because the cargo insurance was a cost they avoided...
TLDR The bank doesn't give a hoot about your cargo, they are only interested in insurance on THEIR asset... namely ths ship.
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Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
I didn’t find much on the costing of used ships, but you could always turn this around on your GM. Find out who the pirate’s is and sue him for damages and emotional distress. 
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
MonsterX
Emperor Mongoose
I'd definitely NOT fold insurance into PC's mortgages, just because they are adventurers in a space opera setting. This could lead to problems for them. But, problems are also adventure hooks.
In general, I'd assume that PCs are the sort of cowboys and cowgirls that try to skirt by without things like insurance, which is likely to get them in trouble sometimes, but that's ok.
Sure, you can buy insurance, it is very sensible to do so. After all, it's a dangerous galaxy out there. Some places might require insurance - or a bond - to dock at a starport, for example. To pay for damages from bad piloting. Or bar tabs that players are skipping out on. Or players might land on the idea that they need insurance to carry a high value cargo through a risky area. But insurance costs more relative to the risk, and player's lives tend to be inherently risky, so such solutions are going to cut deep into their profit margins.
I'm refereeing DNR at the moment, however, and the Deepnight Corporation is self-insuring. Also, I doubt Lloyd's of Tobia has an office in the Far Side of Nowhere. We'll see when we get there.
In general, I'd assume that PCs are the sort of cowboys and cowgirls that try to skirt by without things like insurance, which is likely to get them in trouble sometimes, but that's ok.
Sure, you can buy insurance, it is very sensible to do so. After all, it's a dangerous galaxy out there. Some places might require insurance - or a bond - to dock at a starport, for example. To pay for damages from bad piloting. Or bar tabs that players are skipping out on. Or players might land on the idea that they need insurance to carry a high value cargo through a risky area. But insurance costs more relative to the risk, and player's lives tend to be inherently risky, so such solutions are going to cut deep into their profit margins.
I'm refereeing DNR at the moment, however, and the Deepnight Corporation is self-insuring. Also, I doubt Lloyd's of Tobia has an office in the Far Side of Nowhere. We'll see when we get there.
I'd say insurance is part of the mortgage. It is not for your protection it is for the protection of the lender. If you lose the ship you are unlikely to be able to pay any outstanding sum with your worthless hide. If it were not so then no-one would lend for ship purchases.
As a side plot, the insurance company will likely be after the borrowers blood.
For cargo insurance it is for the shipper to arrange. I normally levy 10% of the base value of the cargo. If you are carrying someone else's cargo you don't need to worry. Of course if you are confident or greedy you can ship your own cargo without adequate insurance.
I also require an Admin check when claiming as those insurers are tricky. Regardless of whether it is someone else's or your own cargo a failure means a court case as the insurance refuses to pay out as it didn't cover the circumstances of the loss.
On the upside insurers reward salvage at 10% of value as a finders fee when they take possession free and clear, no questions asked. Otherwise you need an admin check to make a claim to the salvage (there will be a fee of at least 1% of the value of the salvage). It is standard procedure to ensure the salvage is not a result of piracy. In questionable circumstances (or by default where there are no witnesses) a civil court case likely occur. If you try to sell the ship without trying to register the claim, claim piracy is assumed and you may not live to see the court.
These are story telling opportunities and adventure hooks in the referee's gift, not instant cash cows for characters.
As a side plot, the insurance company will likely be after the borrowers blood.
For cargo insurance it is for the shipper to arrange. I normally levy 10% of the base value of the cargo. If you are carrying someone else's cargo you don't need to worry. Of course if you are confident or greedy you can ship your own cargo without adequate insurance.
I also require an Admin check when claiming as those insurers are tricky. Regardless of whether it is someone else's or your own cargo a failure means a court case as the insurance refuses to pay out as it didn't cover the circumstances of the loss.
On the upside insurers reward salvage at 10% of value as a finders fee when they take possession free and clear, no questions asked. Otherwise you need an admin check to make a claim to the salvage (there will be a fee of at least 1% of the value of the salvage). It is standard procedure to ensure the salvage is not a result of piracy. In questionable circumstances (or by default where there are no witnesses) a civil court case likely occur. If you try to sell the ship without trying to register the claim, claim piracy is assumed and you may not live to see the court.
These are story telling opportunities and adventure hooks in the referee's gift, not instant cash cows for characters.
Fyi, Classic Traveller Book 9: Pirates says that prize ships are generally worth 2d6% of the original price, assuming you can actually get it to port. That's for legal sale of captured ships, such as privateers and corporate trade war "pirates" who have government or corporate patrons with the wherewithal to legalize a captured ship.
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
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Well, when I rent a car, or have rented a U-haul, they always ASK me if I want insurance, but my normal car insurance covers liability while I'm operating it. In this case my liability is the equivalent of collision insurance for the owner of the car/truck I'm renting. However my goods in the back of the van are carried at my own risk (or via my homeowners insurance if I have it). My car insurance covers it because it's under a non-commercial clause and people do not rent (and wreck) rentals as much as they do their own cars. It's same reason why insurance companies now have exclusions for people that earn their living doing things like Door Dash or Uber. That increases risk and is not casual, thus puts the insurance companies at higher risk for payouts.
Insurance depends greatly on who owns the asset and who is taking on the risk. If you own your own free trader, you can risk it and yourself a whole lot! Though the game doesn't cover it... you'd think the Imperium would require some sort of minimal insurance for anything that can fall out of the sky or hit a station.. kill yourself, but somebody has to pay for the repairs.
... quick segue - in the real world we are seeing play out the tragedy of the ship hitting the Francis Scott Key bridge. The owner/operator of the ship agreed to pay $103 million in damages to cover the bridge and clean up. This after first trying to get away with a maximum liability of 'just' $44 million. It's maritime law, so covered under different rules, and the company isn't in the US either. Rebuilding just the bridge alone will probably top $2 billion and the US taxpayer will have to pay. I haven't heard how any of the cargo owners for all that cargo sitting in the containers will make out, or if they will end up eating costs for that cargo, or the delays. It's an area of the law I have zero knowledge of or visibility in to. I've just dealt with personal and business stuff (costs and agreements) ....back to the diatribe
Agreed, banks won't care about the cargo - that insurance is for the cargo owner to deal with. In ye olde days of sail many ship owners also owned the cargo as so much was owner/operator speculation. They would take out insurance on both the ship and cargo. It's where Lloyd's of London got their start back in the late 17th century.
Tramp freighters may often not even have mortgages since the ships are old and would be hard to get a mortgage against anyways. Not that you couldn't but like used cars it's harder to find people to lend against them than newer ones. And, often, the people buying used are not necessarily able to buy new anyways. I'm sure ships would be similar in that sense.
Used cars are a lot less valuable than a used ship, and have a lower threshold of how decrepit they can be and still be usable.
If a second hand car breaks down in transit, it's usually just an inconvenience. If a spaceship breaks down in flight it's always a life or death situation.
If a second hand car breaks down in transit, it's usually just an inconvenience. If a spaceship breaks down in flight it's always a life or death situation.
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mavikfelna
Banded Mongoose
Ok, updates, since we've been kbitzing on the Discord.
First off, while I'm sad the GM is sticking with his ruling, it's his game and he can run it as he likes. If he starts to be to be too unfair or arbitrary then we the players are more than happy to leave. For now, we've had a lot of so far on this run over the last few months so we're sticking with it.
As for not knowing the rules, it happens. We'll use the correct rules from now on. I certainly don't know all the rules and I also find I often confuse myself with old rules from other systems or previous editions. We'll get it right eventually and as long as we're having fun, I think that's what counts
Ok, further on the story. We may not be on the hook for the repairs, there may be an insurance settlement through the mortgage holder. So that's something.
Still no word on how we're going to handle salvage or if we'll be able to claim it. No word on if any of the cargo was salvageable either. But, we don't have insurance on so we're boned for the loan.
One of our first conclusions after their lawyers appeared, before Terry's suggestion above, was that we were going after the pirates and any organization we could find that might be supporting them. So that has lead to the discovery that the head pirate is none other than the Duke of Lunion's chief of staff or similar position and the attack may have been in retaliation for the work we did for NavInt that upset his plans. We are being urged by the GM to accept a meeting with Duke to discuss our lawsuit, the salvage, and probably our attempts to go around his media blackout of the events of the attack and his involvement.
Of course, now real life is getting in the way and our only real political player is going to be away for 2 weeks and be less available after his return due to new work. ::sigh::
Anyway, thank you all for very helpful discussions and idea. They should make a difference for us going forward.
First off, while I'm sad the GM is sticking with his ruling, it's his game and he can run it as he likes. If he starts to be to be too unfair or arbitrary then we the players are more than happy to leave. For now, we've had a lot of so far on this run over the last few months so we're sticking with it.
As for not knowing the rules, it happens. We'll use the correct rules from now on. I certainly don't know all the rules and I also find I often confuse myself with old rules from other systems or previous editions. We'll get it right eventually and as long as we're having fun, I think that's what counts
Ok, further on the story. We may not be on the hook for the repairs, there may be an insurance settlement through the mortgage holder. So that's something.
Still no word on how we're going to handle salvage or if we'll be able to claim it. No word on if any of the cargo was salvageable either. But, we don't have insurance on so we're boned for the loan.
One of our first conclusions after their lawyers appeared, before Terry's suggestion above, was that we were going after the pirates and any organization we could find that might be supporting them. So that has lead to the discovery that the head pirate is none other than the Duke of Lunion's chief of staff or similar position and the attack may have been in retaliation for the work we did for NavInt that upset his plans. We are being urged by the GM to accept a meeting with Duke to discuss our lawsuit, the salvage, and probably our attempts to go around his media blackout of the events of the attack and his involvement.
Of course, now real life is getting in the way and our only real political player is going to be away for 2 weeks and be less available after his return due to new work. ::sigh::
Anyway, thank you all for very helpful discussions and idea. They should make a difference for us going forward.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
That would retired Marine Major Domo Hairy Gato.
He's also an Aslan.
He's also an Aslan.
mavikfelna
Banded Mongoose
This is 1115. And the guy we're dealing with is human stock of some variety. So maybe not his chief of staff. Maybe head of security? I have no idea.
someone in the Duke's leadership group or near to it
boggo2300
Cosmic Mongoose
Renting <> Leasing <> Mortgaging though Leasing and Mortgaging have much more in common You cannot Lease anything, or Mortgage purchase buy anything ever without insurance in my experience, any institution doing so is unlikely to survive long.
Lessee and Mortgage insurance isn't for the user, it's for the lender. they just make the use pay for it, because, well its business. If you want insurance for you, then you pay for that separately, and the Mortgage company (lease holder) don't care, ANY insurance covered in the Mortgage payments will be Mortgage insurance. I've Leased and Mortgaged quite a lot over the years, and it's ALWAYS been that way, every time.
For what it's worth, one of the scattered clusters of Traveller rules on salvage mentioned above can be found in Mongoose JTAS #5. See the article "Salvage Rights" on page 64. There's a fair bit of detail in there on both the process for claiming salvage rights as well as calculating their value.
I think we are mostly saying the same thing. When renting a car you have to have liability insurance on, which won't fix a car you own but will / can be used for damage done BY you to other cars. And many policies carry over your insurance to the car you rent (or even borrow from a friend).
Leasing a car is same as buying it from that perspective, and you'll need full coverage since you are just 'renting' it and you still have to buy it at the end of the lease to own it (same as taking out a loan/mortgage). So there some nuances in here that have to be addressed, and depending on your coverage they already be to some extent.
You can't get mortgage insurance just for you. What you can do is get the lowest premium available for minimal coverage of your own items, but still coverage for the property value. I've not seen any policies ever offered to me like that, just levels of minimal coverage.
That must be Jim Adler, the 453rd Texas Hammer
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
That's him. I've seen so many of his commercials, it was a no brainer.
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