Information wanted - US army in WWI/1920s

[Ben2]

Here is a basic army list, with the command squad, each section and the FT-17/M1917. By removing men to represent casualties you can get a platoon rom the Emhar doughboys box (but a full strength platoon would require two).

What do people think?


Platoon Headquarters squad 90 points
Leader (lieutenant) w/pistol, 1 leader (sergeant) w/Springfield rifle, 4 privates w/Springfield rifle

Size Move Close Combat Target Armour Kill
1 5” D6 4+ - 6+

Pistol
Range: 24” Damage: D6

Springfield Rifle
Range: 20” Damage: D6

Unit Type: Command

Special Rules
With me!: The lieutenant may issue a special order which activates all American units with models within 6” of him including the headquarters squad. They must then take the same action. Units that are suppressed may still only take one action.

Sergeant: When calculating suppression, discard one dice if the sergeant is still alive.

Springfield Rifle: This bolt-action rifle does not count for suppression on a roll of 1 or 2 instead of 1 as standard.

Attach to unit: A headquarters squad may begin the game attached to one of the squads within its platoon, counting as a single unit throughout the game. If it beings the game attached, the headquarters squad may not separate from the squad it is attached to doing the game.

Options
Remove up to 2 privates at a saving of –10 points to represent casualties.


Hand bomber Section 140 points
2 leaders (corporals) w/Springfield rifle, 10 Privates w/Springfield rifle

Size Move Close Combat Target Armour Kill
1 5” D6 4+ - 6+

Springfield Rifle
Range: 20” Damage: D6

Unit Type: Squad

Special Rules
Grenades: The unit is equipped with grenades and may use the grenade rules on page 25 of the Battlefield Evolution advanced rulebook.

Springfield: This bolt-action rifle does not count for suppression on a roll of 1 or 2 instead of 1 as standard.

Options
Remove up to 5 private at a saving of –10 points, and up to 1 corporal at a saving of –20 points.

Rifle Grenadier Section 140 points
2 leaders (corporals) w/Springfield rifle, 1 Private w/Springfield rifle, 6 Privates w/Springfield rifle and gun-grenades

Size Move Close Combat Target Armour Kill
1 5” D6 4+ - 6+

Springfield Rifle
Range: 20” Damage: D6

Gun grenades
Range: 15” Damage: D6-1


Unit Type: Squad

Special Rules
Gun-Grenades: Gun-grenades or ‘tromblons’ are fired from the barrel of the rifle. While they will not travel as far as a bullet, they can decimate infantry in the open and help winkle enemy from cover.
A ready action must be taken before firing gun grenades in order to load the rifles. Rifles may not be fired as rifles after a ready action has been taken until after they have been fired as gun-grenades. This weapon causes a –1 penalty to Armour rolls and will roll extra Damage Dice against every model within 2” of the centre of the model its first Damage Dice is allocated to – these extra models need not be in Line of Sight. It may only be fired once per turn, and never as a reaction.

Springfield: This bolt-action rifle does not count for suppression on a roll of 1 or 2 instead of 1 as standard.

Options
Remove up to 3 private w/gun grenades at a saving of –15 points, and up to 1 corporal at a saving of –20 points.

Rifle Section 200 points
3 leaders (1 sergeant, 2 corporals) w/Springfield rifle, 14 Privates w/Springfield rifle

Size Move Close Combat Target Armour Kill
1 5” D6 4+ - 6+


Springfield Rifle
Range: 20” Damage: D6

Unit Type: Squad

Special Rules
Springfield: This bolt-action rifle does not count for suppression on a roll of 1 or 2 instead of 1 as standard.

Sergeant: When calculating suppression, discard one dice if the sergeant is still alive.

Options
Remove up to 7 privates at a saving of –10 points, and up to 1 corporal at a saving of –20 points.

Automatic Rifle Section 220 points
3 leaders (1 sergeant, 2 corporals) w/Springfield rifle, 4 Privates w/LMG, 8 Privates w/Springfield rifle

Size Move Close Combat Target Armour Kill
1 5” D6 4+ - 6+


Springfield Rifle
Range: 20” Damage: D6

Lewis Gun
Range: 24” Damage: D6

M1918 Browning Automatic Rifle
Range: 24” Damage: 2xD6

Chauchat Light Machine Gun
Range: 24” Damage: 2xD6

Unit Type: Squad

Special Rules
Springfield: This bolt-action rifle does not count for suppression on a roll of 1 or 2 instead of 1 as standard.

Lewis Gun: While the Lewis gun can be fired on the move to take full advantage of its rate of fire it must be set up on a tripod. This takes a ready action to set up, and in subsequent fire actions the Lewis gun rolls 3xD6. This bonus is lost if the unit moves. Every Damage Dice this weapon rolls will count as two for the purposes of Suppression only.
The Lewis gun is vulnerable to jams, and if two of the fire dice roll a 1 the weapon is jammed and may not fire until a ready action has been taken to clear the jam.

Chauchat LMG: This weapon is very vulnerable to jams. If a 1 is rolled on any of the fire dice the weapon has jammed, and may not be fired until a ready action has been taken to clear the jam

M1918 BAR: Every Damage Dice this weapon rolls will count as two for the purposes of Suppression only. If every model in the target unit is assigned two or more Damage Dice when this weapon is used, the unit will lose two actions from Suppression, rather than just one.

Sergeant: When calculating suppression, discard one dice if the sergeant is still alive.

Options
The unit begins with Chauchat LMGs. These may be replaced with M1918 Bars or Lewis guns at a cost of +10 points per model.
Remove up to 2 privates w/LMG at a saving of –20 points, up to 4 privates w/Springfield at a saving of –10 points and up to 1 corporal at a saving of –20 points.

FT-17 Light Tank 90 points
FT-17 Light Tank w/7.62mm machine gun

The FT-17 set some of the key features of the modern tank, with a 360 degree rotating turret not previously seen. Some were purchased by the American army and 950 built as the Six Ton Tank Model 1917 (374 as gun tanks and 50 as radio tanks, the rest as MG tanks).

Size Move Close Combat Target Armour Kill
4 4” 2xD10 7+ 5+ 8+

7.62mm Machine Gun
Range: 20” Damage: 4xD6

37mm Gun
Range: 20” Damage: D6+2

Unit Type: Armour

Special Rules
Tough: The FT-17 Light tank will ignore the first failed Armour roll. An attack that rolls its Kill score will destroy it as normal.
Armoured: The FT-17 Light tank will ignore all terrain 1” high or less for the purposes of movement. It is also immune to Suppression but only has an Armour score of 6+ to the Side or Rear facings. The FT-17 Light tank may never make any reactions except to Shoot with its 7.62mm Machine Gun.

7.62mm Machine Gun: The 7.62mm machine gun has a 360 degree arc of fire. Every Damage Dice this weapon rolls will count as two for the purposes of Suppression only.

37mm Gun: If a model is hit by the 37mm gun models within 1 inch of that model will suffer a damage roll of D6. The 37mm gun has a 360-degree arc of fire. The 37mm gun may only fire once per turn.

Options
Replace 7.62mm machine gun with 37mm gun for +10 points.

 

[Ben2]

Any opinions on this list? Is it at least factually accurate? Would I be better off starting fresh army list threads?

 

[The Old Soldier]

Here is my input, take it for what it's worth.

You can increase the range of the Springfield if you want. That weapon while heavy is a extremely accurate weapon, even at longer ranges. I know I own one. 24" is not out of the question.

I find many of your rules very clever. Good work!!

You may consider the following with MGs in general during this period of time. Most of your Lgt. MGs are not truely light. Exception the BAR. (they still benefit from a assistant gunner) To gain any bonuses, you should have assistant gunners assigned to them. That is the reason there is so many extra riflemen in the section. They carry ammo, weapon parts, and act as assistant gunners. Each should have between 2 to 4 men per weapon.Three tends to be the norm, with 2 for the BAR.

Ways to handle extra crew is the extra dice come into play if they are attached, and if fully crewed they give suppression AFTER models are removed in a FZ. This will make suppression happen more often without adding more dice.

The tank is fine, but it is a Light Tank. In those days, they were vulnerable to small arms to a extent. You might concider to lower the Target Number to 6. Then lower the Armor value to compensate. Say a 3 or dare I say a 2 to the front? This will mean that the tank can be hit by small arms with a slight chance of damage. Raise the Failed armor saves if you want to compensate. Now you have a tank that can be hit, but will take a lot of small arms fire to destroy it over time. I'd keep the Kill at 8. You may even think about suppression of a Tank. It was not unheard of, since they were not the uber vehicles of the late 20th century. Say roll a die when the tank is targeted with a FZ. For every hit the tank takes that FZ roll that may D6. A 1 represents a Suppression.

The weapons on the tank. I would lower the Mg by 1 die, but allow it to suppress AFTER the enemy models are removed. There are plenty of cool areas you didn't mention that the US continued to have fights in. Central America and the island nations around there and the Phillipines to name a couple.

Hope I gave you something to think about.

 

[dsfrankevo]

I don't have anything to add to the unit/rule discussion -

but here are some pics of what my WWI stuff - considering a mod to the BF Evo rules to play with my WWI stuff

Enjoy

 

[Captain_Nemo]

:shock:

That's the best I can do as there is no emoticon for drooling.....

 

[Ben2]

Wow, on the miniatures. Are those 20mm? Are htose the Emhar MkIV males?

I'd certainly appreciate any tips on 20mm miniatures, as I'm just starting the scale out.

 

[Ben2]

Regarding the machine guns and assistant loaders.

All the minis I've seen for Chauchats and Bars are single infantry teams. However how about this:-

For an MG to be set up a rifleman must be in base to base contact with the machine gunner. This man is assisting the gunner with loading and feeding the MG.
He may not fire his weapon during a fire action, as he is too busy reloading the MG and assisting the gunner.

This means a man is sacrificed to set up Chauchats and Lewis guns. In WWII BARs were very rarely used with their bipod, and WWI photos I have seen also do not feature the bipod. Is it ok to leave this as is? Currently I've matched it to the WWII Evo BAR from the playtest rules.

On Tanks

Tanks are a bit trickier - because the period of BF:Revolution goes all the way from the First World War to right before the beginning of the 2nd I prefer to have tanks like the FT-17 invulnerable to rifle bullets but vulnerable to anti-tanks rifles, .50 cals, 20 and 37 mm AT guns etc. A target of 7 acheives this. I can see tanks getting swarmed by infantry with grenades etc but small arms fire from rifles etc countered by a very good save. A target of six with a save of 2+ gives a 2.7% chance of a rifleman removing a damage point from a tank.

While I will say tanks need to be balanced within the game, and infantry could and frequently did capture them (the major source of German tanks was captured British ones, the A7V, the first proper German design, was a falure and only 20 were built), I'm not sure allowing rifle bullets to penetrate them would work. Allowing them to be attacked with grenades in a manner similar to buildings, or close assaulted, might well work. Plus some infantry weapons ie .50 cals, will go through very light tank armour.

Should tanks be vulnerable to small arms fire from the infantry of the period, bearing in mind we will be scaling from the Mk IV and FT-17 to the Panzer II and BT-7.

Opinions?

 

[The Old Soldier]

I think we are talking apples and oranges here.

http://www.firstworldwar.com/weaponry/machineguns.htm

The above link is a nice little overview of the Machine gun with links to each type. While the BAR didn't need a extra gunner per say, you still would have to have on for sustained fire. Why? Who do you think is carring all that ammo? All the other men that make up the light MG unit.

That and the fact that the weapon while it could put out a high rate of fire, wouldn't normally do so in combat. Barrel would overheat, instead small tight burst were the norm.

So the ready action is more about placing the ammo were it is needed, and having one other soldier to help the gunner with ammo switches, ect. You could say if the Bar rolled 2 1's in one action, you would have to use another ready action to gain the bonuses back. Otherwise the BAR is nothing more than a automatic rifle.

The other weapon you mentioned jammed often, so any 1, or dare I say 1, and 2s rolled would need a ready action to clear and use again. Again without a assistant gunner the weapon is just a automatic rifle.

The reason you do not see the assistant gunner in the pics, is most of the pics are NOT in battle conditions.

 

[Captain_Nemo]

TOS Wrote:

Otherwise the BAR is nothing more than a automatic rifle.

I think that this is the point here, they were so cool, because, they were Automatic Rifles. They all ( Lewis, Chauchat, BAR) were magazine fed and, unlike SMG's these beasts used Full Sized Rifle Ammunition; only MG's could put it down range faster. These things could be used on the move to add to the firepower that the squad was lying down

I agree that there should be an A-Gunner with the gunner as you described though, you know, to use that Ready Action properly. No A-Gunner no Ready Action enhancements.

 

[The Old Soldier]

One way to simulate the effect that the MG section kept in close contact with each other due to the fact that the ammo had to be passed to the gunner, would be that the each section would have a small command radius. Maybe three or four inches from the Leader or maybe 3 or 4 inches max from the gunner. Something to consider.

That and a simple ready action, with the double ones rolled meaning the gunner will have to take another ready action to keep the bonus dice.

 

[Captain_Nemo]

TOS I see where you're going....That's really pretty good.

I have to go see my dentist in 6 hours I better get some shuteye.

Cya

 

[Anpu42]

So what do the Cards look Like?

 

[Ben2]

There aren't any yet, we're arguing about design philosophy first.

 

[The Old Soldier]

I call it a exchange of ideas. NOT a agruement. :wink:

BTW: while we are on the subject, I would like all to consider that the time period we are discussing would have smaller command ranges. NO radios at the squad levels, or even a platoon. Company and higher only, and then they were fixed line at that.

Also troops had no armor. (I'm not talking about the trench armor that was developed just for that task) Instead they relied on the lay of the land, and good concealment/cover. You may want to divide terrain into 2 forms each with 2 types. Example.

Cover type 1: objects of opportunity, heavy built (stone, reenforced wooden structures: +1 target +2armor +1 Kill.
Cover type 2: Fixed prepared positions: +1 target +3armor +2 Kill.

Concealment type 1: high grass, brush, gulleys ect, open woods, very light structures(mud huts).: +1 target +1 armor +-Kill.
Concealment type 2: lightly build structures(wooden), very thick woods, and hedgerows. +1 target +1 armor +1Kill.

Obscurement is still a simple +1 target.

The above is what I'm using for my brush war rules, On the Frontiers and Empires. American's Colonial Wars, 1898 to 1930. Which will include Haiti, Central American, and the Philliphines. Feel free to use the above if you like.

 

[Ben2]

Changing command radius is a big change. A 6" command radius means a squad is relatively dispersed, a 3" radius means i is relatively compact.
This becomes important when you have artilery shells and mortars that create fire zones of a certai radius around the centre of the fire zone.

While if playing with 20mm scale a 3" command radius is both more suitable for the period and more practical on the table, however I'd need to look at artillery again so that it doesn't completely dominate the game.

For cover, I would use those changes. While modern military ammunition can make a mess of some types of cover, in the period in question cover saved your ass quite a lot.

I can see having to write a rules changes section to go with the lists now.

On another note just built my 1/72 Emhar Mk IV tanks, and it is huge compared to the FT-17, and the same size as a 1/64 scale BF:Evo MBT.
I wouldd recommend the kit, as it is pretty easy to put together and quite nicely detailed. And the Emhar 1/72 tank kits are only a fiver.

 

[The Old Soldier]

Changing command radius is a big change. A 6" command radius means a squad is relatively dispersed, a 3" radius means i is relatively compact.
This becomes important when you have artilery shells and mortars that create fire zones of a certai radius around the centre of the fire zone.

Oh, you right it is a big change, but a change that is needed if you want to reflect the differences between early modern combat and later 20th century warfare. You don't have to go with 3". But, the thing is men at this time didn't spread themselves out too thin. They had to keep in contact with the NCO that was shouting the orders.

Still the MG section would have to keep in close contact to gain the extra dice, as would the men in the unit for command control. This time period was when modern tactics had not been fully developed. The weapons as were many time period ahead of the tactics. Try it at 4" from the command model. As for MGs sections 3" from the gunner is not that bad. Or make it a straight 4" and fudge it.

BTW: If the gunner is killed in a MG section if you keep you men tight, you would be able with a move order to replace the gunner. Then give a ready to gain the bonus again. In effect it would act much like a out of command situation.

 

[dsfrankevo]

Wow, on the miniatures. Are those 20mm? Are htose the Emhar MkIV males?

I'd certainly appreciate any tips on 20mm miniatures, as I'm just starting the scale out.

The project was inspired by the old Airfix MKI tank in HO Scale (there are 2 on the table) - then when Emhar started producing their 1/72 scale MK IVs - I was hooked.

The minis are 15mm Minifigs WWI Germans and the old Command Decision 15mm WWII Brits (for the most part).

I felt that 'based up' the 15mm minis looked better by the tanks & they were more readily available in metal.

20mm would have worked well too.