In Defence of Borderers

[Foxworthy]

1. Horse-master: something like paladin's mount, or druid's animal companion. Eg your horse can gain hit dice up to half your level, gaining hit points, attack bonuses etc as usual.

I'd suggest that Ride skill ranks can be added to the mount's DV.

Adding ride ranks to DV would be far to powerful, but maybe they could get a more powerful version of mounted combat where they can change the mounts dodge to thier skill roll in ride for every attack in a round instead of just one. Improved Mounted Combat would be a name fitting for the system.

 

[Sutek]

Normal Hyborian Warhorse has a 13 Dodge. If you add a Ride check to that it's a d20+Ride+13. Now that's too much. All I was advocating was Ride Ranks + 13.

DC to control a workhorse or light horse in combat is DC20 every round; warhorses it's DC5.

With Mounted Combat feat, once per round you can negate one hit to your mount, so Improved Mounted Combat being able to negate more than one attack per round would be logical.

 

[Foxworthy]

Normal Hyborian Warhorse has a 13 Dodge. If you add a Ride check to that it's a d20+Ride+13. Now that's too much. All I was advocating was Ride Ranks + 13.

I wasn't saying d20 + ride + 13... that would be insane. I think ride + 13 would be too powerful though. Witha maxed out ride that would be 17 defence at first level which seems a bit high for a horse, where as the ride check to neate the hit would be about a 14 defence. Plus with the ride check as opposed to ride ranks you would get more use out of skill focus (ride) and animal affinty feats.

 

[Sutek]

So you're saying a d20+Ride as a dead swap for the horse's Dodge. I see. I getcha now.

 

[Baduin]

And some other ideas:

Known Terrain-only Skill bonuses from Favoured Terrain, without any other benefits. Nomad should have bonuses to survival in his homeland, but not faster movement on foot or hiding in plain sight.


Crippling shot: In reality arrows seldom killed, but often maimed - it is rather difficult to fight with a metre long arrow through your arm. Nomads should be able to aim their arrows at points when they will be very distracting.

Each arrow or crossbow bolt that hits targets and causes hit-point loss gives -1 penalty to Attack, Defence (both parry and dodge) and Skill tests. The target can pull out arrow itself (full action, DC 15 Fort check, move action DC 20 Fort check), or it can be cut out by a friend (DC 10 Healing check, both take full action).

 

[Sutek]

I'd say that giving them something that could be called "Precision Shot" which increases the Threat Range of bows that they use might be more appropriate and in line with the Horse warrior motif you're going for. Threat Range is far under used except in the Improved Crit feat, and that works for any weapon you touch. If they got a Class-specific bow Treat Rage augment, that'd make sense. Doing Bleed damage or Move hampering shots could probably work, but they'd be better served as new Feats, rather than Class Features, IMO.

 

[Netherek]

I don't like how Favoured Terrain bonuses work. I'd rather have those effects be level based effects for the Borderer, such as Camouflage (hide in plain in any favoured) and the like. The movement bonus is strange, I think a reduction in movement penalties when hampered by Favoured more appropriate and then keep that as a favoured terrain ability, and then a general Movement increase like the Fleet-footed feat at a certain level would be better. This way a Borderer could exceed asw a scout, and a Nomad would be good at surviving, and dealing with Hampering Terrain.

So in reflection...

Favoured Terrain adds it's bonus as usual.

At +2 movement penalties are reduced by one step.
At +4 movement penalties are reduced by two steps, this replaces the previous movement reduction.

Then in the Borderer class grant...

Camouflage at an appropriate level.
Fleet-footed at an appropriate level.
Hide in Plain site at a very high level.

Drop Heroic Sacrifice, or make it part of Diehard. I don't see it as that great of an ability, especially since I am inclined to let a hero go out like that anyway if they want to sacrifice themselves for the group or cause.

This would really make the Nomad and Bordie distinct from one another.

This would definate give the borderer a greater distinction from the Nomad.

 

[Sutek]

I agree in terms of the Move bonuses. It's odd to think of a Swamp oriented character being able to move better while in a swamp. It's not as if he can suddenly walk on the water or "gibbon" from tree to tree.

The hide bit is fine, but I jsut don't see it happening in Plains.

It's all too generic for my tastes, although the Skill and Dodge boosts make perfect sense. Something like the Navigation feat for land-lubbers would be appropriate for Borderers (Orienteering?) and inclusion of Swim, Craft (Herbalism), Heal, and Climb skills ought to be included in the Terrain buffs list.

Something also for modifying overland travel time or whatever might be nice too, but it may be too "scouty" to be a Class feature.

 

[Netherek]

I agree with the expanded skill lists, the dodge bonus and the like.

So what about this.

Favoured Terrain:
adds +1 to all Hide, Listen, Move Silent, Search, Spot, Survival, Swim, Craft (Herbalism), Heal, and Climb.

+1 Dodge Bonus.

Increase bonus as per class.

+2 reduce movement Penalty in hampered Terrain by one step.

At +4 reduce hampered movement in Terrain by 2 steps. Overland is reduced by one step.

Then the Hide Features a Borderer feature at certain levels.

 

[Foxworthy]

Crippling shot: In reality arrows seldom killed, but often maimed - it is rather difficult to fight with a metre long arrow through your arm. Nomads should be able to aim their arrows at points when they will be very distracting.

Each arrow or crossbow bolt that hits targets and causes hit-point loss gives -1 penalty to Attack, Defence (both parry and dodge) and Skill tests. The target can pull out arrow itself (full action, DC 15 Fort check, move action DC 20 Fort check), or it can be cut out by a friend (DC 10 Healing check, both take full action).

The problem I see with this is that the d20 system/ hit points are abstract. Not every hit is supposed to be actual damage. If every arrow that hit someone like that it would turn them into a pin cushion even if the guy got hit with ten arrows for ten points of damage he'd be out of a fight. I just don't see it as a fit for the system.

Though maybe if it was a modified version of the thief's crippling strike ability. Maybe change the ability damage to dex to represnt it hindering. And change it from a thing that happens with sneak attacks to something that happens with either a crit or maybe with an aimed shot, a standard action maybe.

 

[kintire]

If a barbarian is purely a cultural albeit "racial" characteristic and you don't care about mechanics, than why not drop the Barbie class and use Soldier for Barbaric warriors???

I don't care about simple lists of class features, because some class features have more impact than others, and simple lists don't reflect that. Actually, I think the soldier is a pretty good fit for the Nordheim warriors, but they have a meaningfully different niche anyway.

A simple listing of class features does matter to you, you just have an emotional dislike of the Borderer due to it's refences of the Westermark Borderers that the class got its name from.

Ah. messageboard psychoanalysis. I have a dislike of the borderer because its role is covered by other classes, and it is little more than a D20 ranger port.

Actually you cannot create a true scout out of the Barbarian, especially one whom are for the military

Its true. for a pure scout, you are better off with Thief.

why not drop the redundancy of the warriors and use Soldier???

Because here the formalised vs informal distinction actually does exist.

I think the idea of Nomad class is very good, but execution is not perfect. It should be ultimate light cavalryman, horse archer etc (not necessarily a nomad in the strict sense, however).

I think these are some good suggestions, though I too would be doubtful about the bows. They do have a very strong cultural connection, and I think it would be a shame to lose that.

The problem I see with this is that the d20 system/ hit points are abstract. Not every hit is supposed to be actual damage. If every arrow that hit someone like that it would turn them into a pin cushion even if the guy got hit with ten arrows for ten points of damage he'd be out of a fight. I just don't see it as a fit for the system.

I definitly agree. Hit Points can't be seen as direct physical damage...that way madness lies!

 

[Sutek]

I agree with the expanded skill lists, the dodge bonus and the like.

So what about this.

Favoured Terrain:
adds +1 to all Hide, Listen, Move Silent, Search, Spot, Survival, Swim, Craft (Herbalism), Heal, and Climb.

+1 Dodge Bonus.

Looks cool to me...

Increase bonus as per class.

+2 reduce movement Penalty in hampered Terrain by one step.

At +4 reduce hampered movement in Terrain by 2 steps. Overland is reduced by one step.

Not cool.

My problem with this is that "hampered" and "difficult" can mean anything (rubble, a bog, a shallow pond, etc.) and then the conditional states ge too confusing. I'd say that the only Terrain bonuses they get as as above but with some bore tracking and pathfinder type, overland marching abilities.

 

[slaughterj]

I agree with the expanded skill lists, the dodge bonus and the like.

So what about this.

Favoured Terrain:
adds +1 to all Hide, Listen, Move Silent, Search, Spot, Survival, Swim, Craft (Herbalism), Heal, and Climb.

+1 Dodge Bonus.

Looks cool to me...

Increase bonus as per class.

+2 reduce movement Penalty in hampered Terrain by one step.

At +4 reduce hampered movement in Terrain by 2 steps. Overland is reduced by one step.

Not cool.

My problem with this is that "hampered" and "difficult" can mean anything (rubble, a bog, a shallow pond, etc.) and then the conditional states ge too confusing. I'd say that the only Terrain bonuses they get as as above but with some bore tracking and pathfinder type, overland marching abilities.

I think that reductions to the hampering effect are a good idea, based on Terrain. The point is that the person with this ability is able to avoid the more difficult patches such as deeper bogs, cliffs, etc. It doesn't matter what sorts of obstacles might be present, because in the abstract, they are adept at avoiding and circumventing them over the long run of the day's travel.

 

[Sutek]

I simply feel it's superhuman to be able to simply tread lightly over a swamp when everyone else is knee deep in it. It's too "elf".

Know better than to get yourself into that predicament in the first place because of a precise knowledge about swamp terrain is a far better application to me.

 

[slaughterj]

I simply feel it's superhuman to be able to simply tread lightly over a swamp when everyone else is knee deep in it. It's too "elf".

Swamps have areas of differing levels of "boginess" though, which is the point that the scout can lead a party through it quicker by their skill. Not that he makes waterbug shoes for everyone to scoot over it

Know better than to get yourself into that predicament in the first place because of a precise knowledge about swamp terrain is a far better application to me.

Sounds like you agree with me then, that's a part of what I'm talking about.

 

[Netherek]

Ok, good points...

How about at +2 reduce Overland penalty by one step.

And leave at that.

 

[Sutek]

I can't recall a dang thing about Overland travel rates, but that's something I think is under used in the game as it stands now. Part of the fabulous nature of Hyboria is the spectacular lands and countries the party can visit, but long-distance travel isnt' really covere3d in detail, and it's a long road to Shadizar from Tarantian. 8)