Improved trip

[treeplanter]

Hi;

Just wondering, the everyone know that the 2-handed power attack fighter is a killer, but what about the one-handed figther with improved trip? is it viable? I dunno but on paper it don't look bad.

So basicly you wield your one-handed weapon, and you attemp a trip with your off-hand. The feat grant you a +4 on the opposed check and allow you to follow with a free attack. Then you can attack on your prone opponent (+4 to hit). But more interesting, you're opponent will provoke attack of opportunity while standing up, and will lose his full round action

I think combined with quick draw this can become quite interesting. You trip then quick draw your sword and make all your attacks. Of course you'll need some rank in tumble if it back fire so you can use the Kip up manoeuver.

Well thinking about it, you can do the same with 2 hand weapon but better. that suck a bit.

 

[Clovenhoof]

I think we all agree that the combination of Improved Trip and Quick Draw with a two-handed weapon is pretty cheesy. Especially if you imagine it being used multiple times in a combat. A typical example of following the letter of the rules, but not the spirit.

You could easily rule that actually drawing a two-handed weapon does draw an AoO, whether you have Quick Draw or not. On the other hand, normally two-handed weapons aren't even sheathed, you simply carry them over the shoulder in one hand. So "drawing" a 2HW simply means grabbing it with both hands, which again won't credibly draw an AoO.

Be that as it may, years ago it has been determined by the Wizards of the Coast that in D20, you can even do unarmed attacks with both hands full -- you can kick to attack or, in this case, do a leg-sweep in order to trip your opponent.

Also, Kip Up also works if you have some ranks in Jump (5+ iirc), you don't even need Tumble, so most classes will be able to do it.

But all that notwithstanding, Improved Trip is a pretty cool affair because of the free melee attack while the enemy is penalized by -4 Defense, which again you can convert into damage bonus with Power Attack. It's actually one fighting style option I'm seriously considering for my Barbarian, to be used together with a one-handed weapon (ideally War Sword).

 

[treeplanter]

So in the end you could rule that you could not do this with a 2 handed weapon I guess except with the Bill (or other weapon that allow trip attack)

With a Bill it look quite powerful tough, because you still do high damage, and you'll get the +4 to hit (and AOO when opponent stand up), that could almost be problematic

 

[Clovenhoof]

Yeah, it's somewhat powerful, but I don't see it as problematic. As I said in another thread, you shouldn't nerf down every combat style to harmlessness, there has to be some ways left to skin the cat.

Besides, the Bill is not more powerful than the Bardiche, for instance. You get the equivalent to +4 damage per attack, that balances out with the Bardiche's larger damage dice; and you may get extra AoOs, but first you have to succeed at the trip rolls, and you invest a feat to get the extra attack, that's absolutely not imba.

When I run a game, I often use Soldiers with Bills as guardsmen or city watch, and yes, they do use the Trip maneuver, particularly to catch fleeing criminals.
In our current campaign, my Barbarian keeps mistaking Bills for ranged weapons. In one session we came to a site where an animated statue had killed lots of guardsmen, and my Barb kept picking up Bills from fallen soldiers, threw them at the Statue from 10' distance, and retreated again to pick up a new Bill. Worked like a breeze, thanks to Versatility. ^^

 

[Apple]

You don't need quickdraw, you don't typically trip with your hands... in fact you'd want a weapon of some sort.

Anyway, yes, Improved Trip is a pretty good feat if you're fighting humans a lot. Against hippos, rhinos, tigers, crocodiles, giant spiders and the like... not as useful.

Likewise Improved Sunder is sometimes very effective and sometimes not so much. It can make soldiers and fencers cry.

 

[Clovenhoof]

Pretty much all Special Attacks are designed for fighting humans. Bull Rush, Overrun, Trip are much more difficult against creatures that have more legs or are larger. Disarm and Sunder are worthless if your enemy has natural weapons. I'm not sure if non-humans can even be feinted. As far as I know there is not one special attack specializing in non-humans, but that's alright since in Conan most enemies are humans after all.

 

[Hervé]

The 2nd rule (p.207) state you can Feint a non humanoid with a -4 penalty, an animal Intelligence creature with a -8 penalty. You cannot Feint a non-intelligent creature.

 

[Apple]

As far as I know there is not one special attack specializing in non-humans, but that's alright since in Conan most enemies are humans after all.

I've only really looked closely at two published adventures, but neither are predominantly human opponents. Take a look at the bestiary in the Conan book... those suckers are NASTY.

There is at least one feat for larger creatures, giant slayer or something, don't recall, and I'd expect there must be one that is good against demons.

 

[Magister_Ordo_Lyrae]

Well there is Demon Killer but that only gives you bonus' to will saves against terror (and makes you immune to the terror effect of specific demons you have defeated).

There is also the monster slayer feat that doubles the power attack bonus against large creatures. I've always wondered with RAW power attack how this works with 2h weapons, do you triple or quadruple your power attack bonus against large creatures? if so it would be ridiculous in that you could almost always guarantee a MD blow against large creatures.

 

[Hervé]

I think humans are far fiercer than most Bestiary critters in Conan RPG. Humans are given class levels and feats and we all know what it can do. MD and PA being what they are, most critters in the Bestiary are killed with a single good 2 handed blow...

 

[Clovenhoof]

Monster Slayer, at least in 1e, isn't all that mighty, because it limits the _damage_ bonus to your BAB. So yes, with RAW-PA you'd triple the damage bonus. But if you have BAB +10, you can only take a -3 attack penalty and get +9 damage (or maybe -4/+10). You can't take a -10 penalty for +30 damage.

 

[Hervé]

Clovenhoof wrote:

.-3 attack penalty and get +9 damage (or maybe -4/+10)

Poor Monsters...

 

[Clovenhoof]

Of course, with one-handed weapons, or the common nerf for PA, you get "only" double damage bonus, so our BAB +10 fighter could get +10dmg for -5 attack.

 

[treeplanter]

I guess if I want to play a monster hunter I would go for those

- Fleet-footed
- Iron will
- Improved grapple (since most big M have improved grab)
- monster slayer
- demon killer

and maybe add:

- Great fortitude and ligthing reflexe

 

[Ichabod]

I guess if I want to play a monster hunter I would go for those

- Fleet-footed
- Iron will
- Improved grapple (since most big M have improved grab)
- monster slayer
- demon killer

and maybe add:

- Great fortitude and ligthing reflexe

Most of our combats are against monsters.

The first three are good.

Monster Slayer should be replaced with Reckless Attack. The former is not terribly meaningful as a PA upgrade while the latter is perfect for iaijutsu duelling monsters and is useful in many other situations.

Demon Killer should be replaced with Sneer if you really need the Terror check boost. DK is just a really weak version of Iron Will, which is pathetic (and a waste of a cool name). Now, Sneer requires dumping a bunch of ranks in Intimidate, but that's why thieves get 8 ranks a level.

Great Fortitude I can see. I'd expect Improved Initiative over LR unless the character was hunting a specific monster that had a reflex save attack.

 

[Vambelte]

I almost don't use monsters against my players... In fact I just used a few when we had a demom killer in our group, but the player got back to his bandit after 7 or 8 sessions.

Improved trip is a feat I love, and a sword and board soldier whit it is amazing... but the quick draw is unecessary.

 

[Clovenhoof]

Reckless Attack is an awesome feat, for example it's about a thousand times as good as Fighting Madness. The only problem with it is that it isn't Core material. In our game, I wanted to take it for my Barb but the GM doesn't want to allow it. In fact he suggested I might take Monster Slayer but that one I consider too weak.

Demon Killer isn't terrible useful in itself, and especially for Barbarians it's counter-productive. If you don't have to make a terror save, you can't trigger Crimson Mist.

 

[Krushnak]

Demon Killer isn't terrible useful in itself, and especially for Barbarians it's counter-productive. If you don't have to make a terror save, you can't trigger Crimson Mist.

one of the reasons i've been looking at changing crimson mist so it still works with things like that.

Monster slayer is pretty decent, especially if you cant take reckless attack. but its better used by soldier who has the feats to spread around as a barbarian your better off taking improved grapple as a defense against monsters and an awesome attack against most humans.

 

[treeplanter]

What Sneer does?

 

[Clovenhoof]

At this point, I'd like to thank everyone for their fruitful participation in this thread; you have helped me make up my mind how to skill my Barbarian.

Instead of CE + Improved Trip, I'm taking Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Grapple. Apart from the general usefulness of either, they also open up the Fling Aside combat Maneuver, which does pretty much the same as a Trip attack and perfectly fits in with my intended one-handed fighting style. Moreover, I'm going to take Crushing Grip at level 9.

Those feats should be universally useful, against both human and inhuman enemies.