I'm getting sick of "Lumbering"

[Captain Jonah]

If you declare wild weasels as a special action you can prep one, presumably you launch it like all shuttles in the movement phase.

From then on you cannot fire.

The shuttle lasts one turn and is then left behind or you move at 4" to allow it to keep up.

Do you need to launch a fresh one every turn? I would presume yes

To be honest this is worst than cloaking as you sacrifice all firepower and possibly mobility, the Kzinti send a ship to 18" and let you have it with Disruptors and Phasers, if the target ship fires then all the drones are free to fire and no one else can help as they didn't prep IDF.

The problem with this is the cannot fire back bit, it takes your special action for the turn and leaves you a turtle. Yes you are proof against Drones from beyond 12" but then what.

Facing a fleet doing this as a Drone chucker I would close into 36" and fire one drone at every shuttle that was out, next turn I do the same then start killing the ships without shuttles left while dancing away from everyone else that was still using WWs.

Or if this was defensive fire and could be used during the combat then you launch a ready WW in response to being attacked.

Same deal, I spread my fire across multiple ships one Drone each. Using up your Phasers or making you sacrifice your fire by popping the WW.

It has potential for things like cripples limping for cover under the jamming screen of a WW.

How it would work in combat is a bigger question.

I don’t see why both shouldn’t be available, different circumstances, more tactical choice though it does add a little complexity.

Anyway I still think half damage for Phasers fired defensively against plasmas. :wink: :lol:

 

[storeylf]

My reading was that the action puts a wild weasal ready to go as soon as you need it during the fire phase (no need to put out a shuttle mini except as an aide to memory). No speed limit (that was my question) so you go speed 12 and if someone launches drones you are assumed to pop your WW and spoof the drones during that fire phase. If you fire anything the WW is voided. You don't stay with some shuttle mini during movement, and it doesn't last beyond the turn.

You can still fire from what he is saying - that is where intiative comes in, if you can hold of your fire declaration long enough you cause any drone ships that have already gone to miss their launch at you, then you let 'em 'ave it.

I assumed that the idea would be that the WW also jams any targetting at it, so you can't kill the WW to then shot the ship.

Gorns usually have lots of shuttles

 

[deadshane]

My reading was that the action puts a wild weasal ready to go as soon as you need it during the fire phase (no need to put out a shuttle mini except as an aide to memory). No speed limit (that was my question) so you go speed 12 and if someone launches drones you are assumed to pop your WW and spoof the drones during that fire phase. If you fire anything the WW is voided. You don't stay with some shuttle mini during movement, and it doesn't last beyond the turn.

You can still fire from what he is saying - that is where intiative comes in, if you can hold of your fire declaration long enough you cause any drone ships that have already gone to miss their launch at you, then you let 'em 'ave it.

I assumed that the idea would be that the WW also jams any targetting at it, so you can't kill the WW to then shot the ship.

Gorns usually have lots of shuttles

This is correct. Although, destroying the WW doesnt do you any good on the turn that it's launched. ("as targetting systems have to recalibrate") Firing weapons immediatly voids the wild weasel however.

 

[Captain Jonah]

Ok so what happens if you have fired already in the turn, does that prevent you launching or can you fire then hide behind the WW?

Personally I think you should declare and launch the WW in movement not as a defensive reaction. Lots of little tricks you can pull such as firing THEN putting out the WW or putting up the WW then firing towards the end of the turn using your small Init sink stuff to take up the middle actions.

If you are under a WW you are under it for the entire turn or till you void it.

Also the WWs draw off fire, they should not be invulnerable. If I fire a drone at the WW it dies even if the effect continues, or makes them one shot as they burn out the shuttle controls.

No reusable shuttles for this one. You should be able to use up the limited store of shuttles of people doing this. Gives the large shuttle bay ships an advantage since the small stuff with 2 shuttles gets through them quickly.

 

[dalek4890l]

A problem I can foresee with wild weasels is that although they solve the drones problem they create another one.

As soon as your Gorn has limped across the board taking drones and disruptor fire you finally get into range, fire your torpedoes and the Kzinti's...launch a wild weasel! Then while you try to reload they hit you with more drones, short range phasers and disruptors. You cannot even bolt the plasmas to avoid this as they retain all the characteristics (i.e. seeking) so will automatically miss (or rather automatically hit the shuttle).

 

[dalek4890l]

Improving IDF making plasmas even worse is a very solid concern.


A few people have mentioned a range bracket for IDF. Problem with this is a complexity, if IDF is automatic for fire beyond a certain range but not within that range then you end up making crew checks anyway against that drone from close in.

I think this is 'realistic' though; if we assume (and it is a big assumption) that 1" in ACTA:SF equals 2 hexes in SFB then a bonus for IDF/Evasion beyond a certain range is reasonable. If the drones are speed 20 then at a range of 24" they are 48 hexes away and would take a couple of turns to arrive. Now the drones could have a turn of speculative fire from heavy phasers to weaken then, making any phaser-III hits later automatic kills. Also there will be plenty of time to alter your formation slightly to maximise the ability to use your phaser fire arcs (or even lay a few non-existant transporter bombs).

You also measure the range anyway before firing (if you don't the Kzinti will as with a 24" bracket they'll want to know if his disruptors are within range or not). Possibly not making the roll automatic but give it (and evading) a crew check of only 6 if the range is over 24" (I picked 24" as it seems resonable and the Kzinti player will measure the distance for you )

 

[storeylf]

A problem I can foresee with wild weasels is that although they solve the drones problem they create another one.

As soon as your Gorn has limped across the board taking drones and disruptor fire you finally get into range, fire your torpedoes and the Kzinti's...launch a wild weasel! Then while you try to reload they hit you with more drones, short range phasers and disruptors. You cannot even bolt the plasmas to avoid this as they retain all the characteristics (i.e. seeking) so will automatically miss (or rather automatically hit the shuttle).

Going by the suggestion above this wouldn't happen quite as you note.

The Gorn would charge across at speed 12, WW any long range drones, then when they are close launch plasma. As the suggestion was that WW only affect things more than 12" away it is unlikley the plasma would be affected - you are generally looking to launch plasma at close range anyway.

You still get hit by disrupters on the way in, but you would anyway. What it stops is the kzinti/Feds/Klinks staying as long as possible at range 25+ killing a ship a turn with drones. The drones are still effective at close range, but at that point so are the Gorns.

Whilst you reload you get smacked by drones, but again that is not a new problem created by the WW.

 

[dalek4890l]

A problem I can foresee with wild weasels is that although they solve the drones problem they create another one.

As soon as your Gorn has limped across the board taking drones and disruptor fire you finally get into range, fire your torpedoes and the Kzinti's...launch a wild weasel! Then while you try to reload they hit you with more drones, short range phasers and disruptors. You cannot even bolt the plasmas to avoid this as they retain all the characteristics (i.e. seeking) so will automatically miss (or rather automatically hit the shuttle).

Going by the suggestion above this wouldn't happen quite as you note.

The Gorn would charge across at speed 12, WW any long range drones, then when they are close launch plasma. As the suggestion was that WW only affect things more than 12" away it is unlikley the plasma would be affected - you are generally looking to launch plasma at close range anyway.
Whilst you reload you get smacked by drones, but again that is not a new problem created by the WW.

No, the point I was making was that the WW would void your first firing so you'd get no attack but the Kzinti's would have a free one while you reload.

I must admit I did misread the 12" range restriction. Be careful with wild weasels though back in the early SFB days they had to constantly alter rules as players came up with several ways of circumventing the rules. For example with this wild weasel what if I launch it outside the range of all weapons (over 36") it is then invulnerable and forces the enemy to close the range to kill it.

Also this wild weasel is considerably different from the SFB version: the SFB version you under two restrictions:-

1/. No firing.

2/. Really slow movement (4 hexes maximum as I recall) effectively surrendering initiative.

There are some other changes but these are relatively minor.

Its radical difference to the SFB version isn't a problem for me (although a ship with an active wild weasel using an all power to engines special action would seem a bit odd) but as we have had some errata specifically to handle some conversions it may cause licensing problems. It might be an idea to start a WW thread.

 

[storeylf]

Not sure what you mean by having a wild weasal and using all powes to engines. If you use the WW action then obviously you cannot use another special action.

Whilst people may have different ideas of how a WW ought to work I was reading the above suggetsion as it only lasts for that turn, and you can't target the WW to destroy it. Is that like SFB - no, but neither is a lot of other stuff. The action provides for the concept of a WW/EW Decoy but doesn't bother with all the fiddly bits like SFB, it just negates drones fired from at long range so long as you use the special action and have the shuttles available ( you lose a shuttle, but no need to actually put in on the table expect as a reminder).

I suppose you could use the same rule with a different name, like 'All power to jammers'.

 

[dalek4890l]

Not sure what you mean by having a wild weasal and using all powes to engines. If you use the WW action then obviously you cannot use another special action.

Well you launch a WW; it isn't destroyed (out of range or behind cover). The next turn you use all power to engines. The rule didn't say it was only for one turn, only until you fire weapons. It also didn't say that you have to keep using the order every turn after the shuttle is launched just that you couldn't fire.

 

[storeylf]

Those bits were noted in subsequent posts.

 

[dalek4890l]

Yes I see now how it would work and it appears okay (Kzintis will disagree as there best weapon system is now only range 12"........but they've had it too easy so far).

Just a couple of clarifications though:-

I presume the quick launch trait wouldn't allow multiple weasel launch in a turn (i.e launch a WW as a defensive action, fire later and void it but then just launch another one later as a defensive action).

How does it interact with suicide shuttles? can you only launch one if the target is within 12"? Or can you launch one speculatively while the target is over 12" hoping that the weasel will be voided by the time the target is close enough (while not normally a problem being the target unable to fire defensively would give the suicide shuttle a chance it doesn't normally have)?

While this plugs the rule and is effectively a 'Gorn only' rule I still think its biggest problem is how vastly different it is to how Wild Weasels work in SFB. While it isn't a problem for me I cannot see it being adopted.

I also still think that an Intensify defensive fire/ evasion bonus under certain circumstances would be better.

 

[storeylf]

It is different to SFB, but then how to close to SFB/FC are drones! ACTA is clearly not trying to replicate minute details, but just high level concepts.

Not sure about the gorn only bit, everyone has shuttles. OK Gorn have more, but you probably only need a couple to close the range on drone heavy forces.

You are right of course, this is just one way of dealing with mass drones.

 

[dalek4890l]

Not sure about the gorn only bit, everyone has shuttles. OK Gorn have more, but you probably only need a couple to close the range on drone heavy forces.

I say 'Gorn only', in quotes, as the Gorn are the only ones that need it. Romulans cloak, everyone else has some kind of useful anti-drone defence and longer ranged direct fire weapons. Only the poor Gorn have to lumber into range 8" before the fun starts.

 

[Ben2]

The problem seems to be that WW can completely screw plasma and drone races, and it is only the drone issue that is a cause for concern.

I still believe the way to deal with drone balance issues is to fix drones, as changes to IDF will also affect plasma, which isn't broken, and adding WW will be a can of worms filled with smaller cans of worms.

 

[Captain Jonah]

The problem seems to be that WW can completely screw plasma and drone races, and it is only the drone issue that is a cause for concern.

I still believe the way to deal with drone balance issues is to fix drones, as changes to IDF will also affect plasma, which isn't broken, and adding WW will be a can of worms filled with smaller cans of worms.

Yep, lets keep the worms away please. Now cans of nice tasty Tribbles are more than welcome :lol:

What we need are minor changes that solve the problem without causing complex new interactions within the rules and fleets.

Drones are the problem so its drones we need to look at. I disagree with making them weaker as in D3 damage or non Devastating, if they hit they should be nasty.

I just think it should be way harder for them to hit. Yes I know a certain man with his name in red says there are lots of ways to shoot them down now, that is with 2 or 3 ships, at fleet level there is no reasonable defence.

But any change must not impact plasmas who get enough sharp sticks in the eye already. Yes shuttles are under used, not bothered by that too much. Yes Gorns have a Fleet trait of quick launch that is all but useless, not bothered too much by that either.

But a change must reduce the overwhelming ability of Drones to chew up fleets from silly ranges without further crippling the short range plasma users so blanket seeking weapon changes are out.

Also there are a great many ways in which a WW will change movement rules, firing rules, all those questions about “what if” that have been mentioned so far.

As it stands WWs add a significant layer of complexity, I think too much for a “Simple” rule set. Lets face it people still have problems with ADDs and that’s just a few lines of text. WWs are going to require paragraphs to explain

The change needs to be made to Drones not to anything else. Drones should pack a punch if you want to even closely reflect the SFU, reducing Drones to multihit 2 cuts down on the fleet firepower but makes Drones all but pointless in smaller actions.

I’m fairly firmly of the opinion now that All ships should be free to shoot down long range Drones, this is how it is in both source games. Keep drones scary at shorter ranges by requiring the IDF but allow free shots from any ship in Phaser range of the target against those over 18” Drone shots.

Suddenly the killer Kzinti fleet actually has to come into range of everyone else, they are still going to hurt with 24+ drones a turn but if they are forced to close the range to get those unstoppable auto hits then everyone else is in range to fire back (well apart from the poor bloody plasma races).

While it’s a single line change on an errata it significantly changes the way Drones can be used without changing how they work. I suspect those killer Drone fleets will become far less in number and more balanced fleets that can fight and survive within 18” start to come out. No change to the actual fleet balances since they retain all the weapons they have with the same stats. What changes is the tactics available to them.

Something like a Fed BCH with its 4AD of drones and ADDs is just as defensive thanks to the ADDs and as its main targets are going to be inside Photon range its not effected by the over 18” thing. The only ones who will face a change of tactics are the slightly cheddar smelling Fleets with 30 odd Drones (well all Kzinti as well but the Kzinti have some nice combat cruisers so its not going to kill them to actually have to fight people rather than just stand off with Drones :lol: )

 

[Ben2]

That might work very nicely, and duplicates SFB where an integrated fleet can pick off drones on the way to the target ship. Drones are still nasty, and still do large damage, but sitting at 30" with agile ships and pounding the enemy for four or five turns isn't as practical.

 

[storeylf]

Also there are a great many ways in which a WW will change movement rules, firing rules, all those questions about “what if” that have been mentioned so far.

As it stands WWs add a significant layer of complexity, I think too much for a “Simple” rule set. Lets face it people still have problems with ADDs and that’s just a few lines of text. WWs are going to require paragraphs to explain

You are grossly exagerating what the WW suggestion was. There was no movement implication at all, that is ex SFB players carrying over assumptions. There were no new fire rules, There is no greater complexity than several other special actions. Paragraphs to explain, hardly!

It was simply a special action that negated long range drone fire if you had a shuttle left whilst having little affect on plasma.

This game has issues with understanding due to lax rules writing not because things are complex,

Thats not to say there are not other ways of reducing drones effectiveness, but please, keep things in perspective.

 

[Keeper Nilbog]

So, if Capt. J's example is used as a base, we are looking at a weapon trait along the lines of as follows :-

'Long flight' :? ;- This weapon tracks it target over range, maybe picked of by other ships who have the time to target it as it travels to it's target. Seeking Weapons with this trait, which is fired form over 18", (happens to be Half Range ) are targetable by any ship WITHOUT the use of the IDF SA.

Thats what i think was suggested :?: (and i actually quite like)

The only issue i can see with this is that of how you determine range - as it will basically just mean that the drone user fires at the nearest target, rather than a more productive target. Stop 1st/2nd turn Drone spam though.

 

[Captain Jonah]

I was thinking:

Any ship with an allied ship under fire from Drones that have been fired from more than half range away (19"+) may use its own phasers to engage the drones.

All phasers must be in arc and range and may only be used once per turn, normal defensive/offensive rules apply etc etc.

Not a special as such, just a note under drone defence. Or it could be a weapon trait, which ever is simplest realy :wink:

Use the range from the firer to the target. It can be worded up all fancy if someone wants to :lol:

I'm happy with Drone chuckers closing to 18" to stop everyone getting shots at the Drones, 18" gives everyone a chance to get into the fight and despite people who keep saying its easy to close the range (it isn't when facing an enemy working hard to keep the range open) I think it makes for far more interesting fires. The Kzinti have to use actual tactics and fire disruptors and stuff :lol: