Hyborias Fiercest

MountZionEditor said:
I think Raven has a rather valid point and replies like this
Ah, so that is why you play Conan, so you can punish these evil men.
Are just childish and hurtful.

I would agree with MZE that these attacks are not appropriate.

I do not allow my kids to look at my Conan books either.

I will argue from another side of the coin that my wife is an active reader of Conan (both REH's works and the role-playing game), and she does not take major offense to the material. She just rolls her eyes at the nudity and moves on. She is adamantly against the objectification of women in our culture, and is a firm believer in the equal dignity of women in society, but she doesn't view the Conan material as an unabated assault on women.

I will note that my wife's and Raven's life experiences seem vastly different, but there is another side of the female Conan gamers story.
 
Well In the south or better known as the "Bible Belt" you still have those that find anything and everything wrong with something. Ive seen anti-RPG movements by local church groups, ive seen pamplets, Ive seen people hanging out at book store and calling you satanic because you look at the gaming material.... and these are just the kids. But Ive also seen people pray and dance with poisionious snakes in there hands and claim that "if you have God in your heart, then they snake wont harm you"...
WELL, I dont know about you but I try not to use up my faith points with God unless I have too...
 
Raven, I can see your points, but I think its putting a bit too much importance on a silly RPG to suggest it could be responsible for moral corruption (unless the person using it is already a looney tune :) )

But having said that, you are probably right about the nudity, theres no real reason it should be there and the book is certainly no better for it, so in future it would be better to leave it out as it makes no difference to the book, it only alienates some people (be it women or younger people).

Odovacar, there was no need for that remark just because you disagree with someone...
 
I don't like that you feel set upon because of your opinion. You have yours, they are thought out and are shared by others. Some people have opinions aobut your opinion. That's all well and good too. When you feel that you are fighting, it's time to just let it go for a bit. I do not share your opinions and I hope I expressed my opinions without making you feel besieged. If not, then please understand that I work in politics and I accept and welcome opinions that differ from mine. It is far more interesting for me to discuss issues with the Democrats and argue, than it is to sit around with Republicans saying "I agree" or "Me too." I welcome your opinions as well.
 
Well, I am anarchist so this discussion be interesting to say the least.

On other topics- Re: Violence vs. Sexuality, I have a POV that has come about after some thought and hard experience. IMHO, violence, like REH says, is a natural state humankind. [Note that I don't say it is the only state of mankind.] Some level of conflict is required for growth and lacking a natural predator, the weak of the gene pool must be removed somehow.

It is only when we get 'civilized' that things start going awry. Humans want to believe they want peace, but w/o the natural challenges to survival that feed this natural desire for conflict. Once those are removed, there is trouble. Think violence is evil, we try to suppress it and focus it into other venues, like commerce, sports or roleplaying 8). Since violence is considered 'evil' and all humans desire it, they think themselves evil and thus conceal it. Since other appear to be non-violent, we start hating ourselves and that hate becomes projected onto the others we think are perfect and there I think is why humans keep ripping apart the civilizations they create.

Sex too is a natural function, to continue the species and relieve stress. It is only when, as one of players who say Sin Ciy said, the two are mixed that there are problems. Animals in thw wild don't make a habit of degrading/dstroying mates or their own children. That makes no sense ona genetic level, to try and destroy your own line. Thus I believe the rampant abuse/rape of famil/lovers/friends is that unfocused and frustrated rage coming out and ripping things apart again.

Note that there is love too, that mysterious, strange force that knows no bounds, limits or rules save its own. I have felt love on a spiritual level, so I know it exists, but not so much on the physical plane. Perhaps if we are too comfortable with your lot, love seems another possesion that can be safely squandered. Lacking the insight of a greater Power, I can't say for sure, just speculate.

There is also the more mundane urges to create. protect, loyalty etc. that counterbalance the urge for pointless violence. Perhaps as we stifle our natural urge for violence, these too become stifled and we boecome grey and pale versions of what we could be. I know that I am more intense than most people, and I lack a lot of he material desires that they do and I know th evalue of love. Perhaps suffering really does bear the fruit of wisdom.

Raven, Childe of Night
 
I think that everyone is entitled to their opinion regarding this subject, and obviously it is not for any person to say what should or shouldn't offend someone else. Raven, if you are offended by the material, that's your right, and it's too bad that aspects of this game make you uncomfortable (when, otherwise, you seem to enjoy it).

I will say this, however: I find it hard to believe that any of the information in these RPGs is used by gamers to satiate personal erotic urges. I'd also be willing to bet that this was not Mongoose's intent with putting such material in the sourcebooks. I do believe that this information (ie, prostitution, contraception, etc.) was included so we are given a complete idea of the culture/society for the regions that are the topic of each supplement. If you're attempted to give a thorough representation of a region's culture, you include everything (and prostitution has been around and in large supply for many years). Howard was a historical writer in many respects (I've read that the reason he created Hyboria was because he was sick of trying to be historically accurrate with other characters, like Bran Mak Mort, etc.). Nevertheless, it's obvious that history, culture, society, etc. are very important in his writtings. If Mongoose is going to stay true to his vision of the Conan world, a society's cultural preferences should be included in each sourcebook.

Personally, I like the fact that they've covered what they have in Aquilonia, or Shadizar, for example. Do I mean that I'm glad they put information on prostituion in the books because I like that, and I'd be upset if it weren't there? Not at all. But, I do like that they've taken the time to give us information on just about every aspect of a civilization's culture, and I would guess that was Vincent/Mongoose's point when writting these books (not to play to folks who are looking for T&A in RPGs, whoever they are).

As for the nudity along the borders.....that's a different story. I'm guessing it was done to stay with the overall feel of Conan stories, and pulp novels in general (most of those had half-naked women on their covers). Again, I find it difficult to believe that Mongoose was hoping to get sales from folks who are looking for eroticism from RPGs. Rather, their intent from the beginning has been to stay as true to Howard's vision as possible. That vision, to the dismay of some, includes naked women.
Whether it's right wrong or otherwise. Personally, I can take it or leave it. It doesn't detract from the game for me (when I open a Conan RPG book, I'm never looking at the borders. I'm saying to myself: "Where the hell are those rules for armor piercing again?" or " Can he REALLY do that with this spell he has?" and so on).

Again, it's not any person's right to say what should or shouldn't offend someone else. Raven: we can't sit here and bash you because certain material in these books offends you. That's your right (to be offended, that is). What I am suggesting is that maybe there's a different angle to why Mongoose published the material that they did. And, ultimately, you can always walk away from this game if that bothers you enough. That's the beauty of RPGs. There's lots of 'em out there for we saps to throw our money at :wink:
 
I have to give a second to ReptileJK's observation that these books are including an entirety of the culture of the Hyborean world.

Howard’s world is dark, most evidence of supernatural powers are of evil demonic 'gods'. There is little evidence (if any) of good gods that hold human kind up to higher standards. There is little belief in a paradise for the afterlife. In such a bleak outlook, what do people have to live for?

Not much except the basic human pleasures. For this reason, it makes sense that prostitution, drugs, and alcohol are so prevalent in the society, and thus fitting to be included in the cultural discretions of the books.

I think this 'nothing else to live for' mentality is why the rule of wealth makes so much sense in Conan.

One thing that makes Conan such an enduring character is that he is better than that. I love his quote at the end of 'Vale of the Lost Women' where he says just because men can act like pigs doesn't mean that they have too.

At any rate, Howard's world is bleak, society reflects that, and any source books detailing culture should also reflect that.
 
I think the borders are fine as the pic of the nekkid woman looks very "Frazetta-esque" and is a fit for the mood.

I also think that if my kids are mature enough to play an RPG or even to flip throguh the book, a bare cartoon boobie is certainly not as shocking as a bloody sword or battle scene. It's an interesting statement about our morals that most of us find a bare breast shocking and even more shocking than seeing someone run through.

That aside, the RPG seems VERY true to the writings of Howard, De Camp and Jordan and the others. I love it but I don't let my 10 year old flip through the book just yet. Each parent is entitled to their own opinions on that as is each individual. I think the reason some of us are posting our opinions about the opinion is that we're all consumers and some of us seem to be lobbying for change and others seem to like the product as is. Perception is reality and we're both right and both wrong. Just keep it all friendly and we'll all get on fine.
 
Raven Blackwell said:
Can we concetrate future supplements on the good story telling elements he was capable of and not where his mind drifted in weaker moments?

His good storytelling likely was integrally linked to these "weaker" moments, and to strip this part out likely would diminish the whole as well as be an attempt at making the product politically correct, which would be a travesty.
 
Raven Blackwell said:
IMHO, violence, like REH says, is a natural state humankind. [Note that I don't say it is the only state of mankind.]

No, actually, REH stated that barbarism is the natural state of mankind. Violence is a part of that, but the point he was making was about a more basic, animalistic or natural level of existence.

There is a significant difference between barbarism and violence. Barbarism can encompass a peaceful existence as well as a violent one, much as civilization can (occasionally).
 
Raven Blackwell said:
'Cause "Temptress"='Whore" in most uses of the word. Do we have to have a entire class devoted to it?

Maybe the newer viewpoint is that temptress = whore, but not mine. And, yeah, a whole class devoted to it would be nice.

To get so huffy puffy over a temptress class is most amusing. 8)
 
Ranzadule said:
I also think that if my kids are mature enough to play an RPG or even to flip throguh the book, a bare cartoon boobie is certainly not as shocking as a bloody sword or battle scene. It's an interesting statement about our morals that most of us find a bare breast shocking and even more shocking than seeing someone run through.

For me its more about my 9yr old daughter coming across the book, seeing the border and thinking, "Gee, Daddy is looking at a book with naked ladies."
Do I think the border objectifies women. No, but what will my daughter think? That's what concerns me. If the border were a movie it would be at least PG-13. Does the border need to be PG-13? We've seen that opinions vary.

I'll keep mutilating my books, I suspect.

Raphael
 
MountZionEditor said:
Ranzadule said:
I also think that if my kids are mature enough to play an RPG or even to flip throguh the book, a bare cartoon boobie is certainly not as shocking as a bloody sword or battle scene. It's an interesting statement about our morals that most of us find a bare breast shocking and even more shocking than seeing someone run through.

For me its more about my 9yr old daughter coming across the book, seeing the border and thinking, "Gee, Daddy is looking at a book with naked ladies."
Do I think the border objectifies women. No, but what will my daughter think? That's what concerns me. If the border were a movie it would be at least PG-13. Does the border need to be PG-13? We've seen that opinions vary.

I'll keep mutilating my books, I suspect.

Raphael

Couldn't you just put them somewhere that she couldn't find them? Shut them in a closet in your room, or place them on top of a shelf that she can't reach? That way you wont have to purposefully damage the books that you're paying so much money for.

Just a thought.
 
Raven Blackwell said:
Well, he can put it anyway he wants, I can put it mine.

I have no problem with that. However, if you're quoting someone, you should at least get it correct.

Raven Blackwell said:
P.S. No offense Jason- but are you type that talks in movies describing to people on the minute details of what is going onscreen that you read off the Internet? 8)

I'm not sure how you felt such an insulting comment would not be taken as an offense, but no, I don't talk during movies, unless my wife asks me a question about the film, and then I whisper very softly and usually say "I'll explain later" if the explanation is not a short one.

However, Raven, you really should get check your REH before you misquote him on a board full of REH enthusiasts.

It would also help you to try to actually know something about, for example, TSR's sales in the eighties before you make a statement like "D&D was almost killed by angry mothers" during that period.

No offense intended, though.
 
:?
remind me...what does this have to do with Hyboria's Fiercest?

Raphael
Who has very strong beliefs about the "natural state" of humankind, but prefers to keep them to himself.
 
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