Hyborias Fiercest

[The King]

I understand Raven though she uses harsh words but it is interesting to have the point of view coming from a woman.
I believe that a specific Temptress class is somewhat sexist because it implies that only (probably beautiful) females can access to this class while all the others (soldier, thief, etc.) can be played by male and female characters.
A good female thief or scholar can do a lot by using her charms (most likely by roleplay). Why should there be a dedicated class for it? In fact I would have prefered a more general and useful class such as the merchant for instance.

 

[Odovacar's Ghost]

So, perhaps mongoose will have a picture of a male tempter in it. Some guy who is scantily clad, just to appease certain birds who flock to this forum.

Also, I'm sure there are many male whores, child prostitution, and whatnot in the hyborian age.

Perhaps some animal temptresses should be added. Women or men, who are into dogs, chickens, fish, or (wo)man-apes.

So, in essence, whores/prostitutes can be both males and females. So, I would think that temptresses or tempters will be in the game too.

But, I dirgress. I enjoy the antics that raven posts. Also, I belive she represents a small minority that thinks all of this is displeasing.

 

[The King]

So, perhaps mongoose will have a picture of a male tempter in it. Some guy who is scantily clad, just to appease certain birds who flock to this forum.

Aren't you describing Conan there? Sure he tempted many women.

Also, I'm sure there are many male whores, child prostitution, and whatnot in the hyborian age.

It has to be a game not a depiction of human poverty because we could then ask for more classes: rapter, torturer, serial murders (guys specialized in killing with anything, e.g. a toothbrush - some kind of special forces in fact).

 

[red_herring]

I have to agree with Raven... there are better ways to use the pages of Conan supplements than describing prostitution and contraception. I certainly don't role play those scenes in my gaming sessions, so the source material has been a waste of paper for my group. While the Temptress has a role in Conan, I'm not sure it falls outside of the other classes and I'm certain I don't want 1/3 of a new source book dedicated to it. I'm sure it's too late to argue now.

Oh, for the record, my objection to the boobs on the corner of every page is the impact on mass appeal. If my parents had seen a Conan RPG book when I was a kid, I would have been banned from gaming for life. I've recently purchased some D&D products for my 12 year old nephew--his mom already objects; the Conan illustrations would put her over the edge.

-RH

 

[Odovacar's Ghost]

What do you mean 1/3 of the book will be about the temptress? When no one class from the previous book was 1/3 of the book. But, once again, this is a source book. You don't like something about a certain aspect of the book, then don't use it.

Now, a full 3 page pull out sheet of a tempress would be great to have! Similar to the ones that playboy has. To please both sexes, perhaps have two of them. One of a guy, another of a gal. Both from the same class!

Now, I wonder how many people hated that book recently release for D20 that was chock full of wholesome good stuff. What was it called? Oh yes, the book of erotic fantasy.

I recommend that book, if you feel that mongoose hasn't put out enough info.

 

[Raven Blackwell]

[[deleted]

 

[Raven Blackwell]

[deleted]

 

[greenjelly]

Well, while I agree the book loses nothing having the border artwork removed, I dont see why it couldnt be included. Some people might be put off, but I find it hilarious that someone would be so offended by a naked female and not play a game, and then feel fine about murdering people and animals in a game. Even if they are bad

Maybe if she had a bikini on or something it would be better, but I dont think its a giant leap from the source material to the artwork thats been shown thus far in the books.

One thing I will agree on, is rules for prostitution, that RIDICULOUS Book Of Erotic Fantasy someone put out and all that crap, would anyone honestly use those? Maybe im too old (27) but I cant see anyone actually using them, they serve no purpose to a game whatsoever.

But that doesnt mean a temptress class doesnt, as has been suggested, a very manipulative, attractive woman could be a temptress, so I dont see why they cant be included in the game (though I wonder how long she would last in a group of players if roleplayed correctly... Probably bst to keep them as protagonists actually, but anyway...)

 

[red_herring]

No need to drag this out (much) further, but I've been disappointed with the amount of reprinted material included in the supplements overall (especially the questionable parts). Prostitution is covered in Across the Thunder River, the Free Companies, Shadizar, Messantia, and Aquilonia. Isn't this overkill? There's also a lot of redundancy on religion, culture, feats, and illustrations (Aquilonia was the vilest offender on all charges).

That said, I've found at least some use for all the products in the Conan line this far. I thought the early stuff (Pirate Isles, Road of Kings, Scrolls of Skelos) offered the most bang for the buck, and the settings have been useful, especially the pre-made NPCs. It doesn't really matter though; I'm a "completist," doomed to purchase everything that Mongoose produces in the Conan line.

-RH

 

[Hyborian Apeman]

As for why I like Conan yet have bad things to say about it- I'll have to post that in detail later- running out of time here. Suffice to say I am the 'loyal opposition'- I believe in the Conan system but want to help comb out the flaws to better it. Why desend into the 'erotic' sphere? It's about thrusting swords into Stygian priestess and then cutting their heads off before they get the death curse off, not trying to get them into bed. Is this 'Hyboria's Fiercest' or 'Hyboria's Passive-Agressive'? 8)

While I agree that a great part of Conan is the hack and slash blood letting that we have come to know in love, I don't think that defines REH's world in its entirety.

One only has to look 'Xuthal of the Dusk' to see a "temptress" with many of sexual overtones highlighted in Shadizar. Or "Vale of the Lost Women" to see a female try and seduce Conan to get what she wants.

I think that component of Conan is a part of the world, and depicting the world in this way doesn't involve descending into the erotic sphere.

Don't get me wrong, I could take or leave the nudity, and I am not in major support of a "Temptress" class, but I am going to give it a fair shake to see how its presented and to see if it will add anything to the game. I am somewhat against the ad hominum attacks against others because they don't share your views on this aspect of the game.

 

[René]

Raven wrote: Precisely. As I said earlier- there are Angry Mothers everywhere. They and the moral majority almost terminated D&D in the 80's for the mere fact of having 'demons' in the Monster Manuals. [It got so bad that the phrase 'Angry Mother Syndrome' or AMS was coined ]

1. Wow: Seems I'm a lucky one to live in Germany. I'm in RPGs since 15 years and only once heard of a religious fanatic woman who throw a RPG in the corner (it still was usable and revered as a martyr's copy :wink: ).
Do you have really so many anti-RPG fanatics in the US?

2. Regarding sexism in CONAN: the purpose of the CONAN RPG is to recreate the Hyborian AGE as it was dreamed of by REH. He was - at least in our modern view - a sexist. If someone doesn't like this - good, it's his / her decision, but I want an AUTHENTIC CONAN RPG, not a political corrected and censored version.

Maybe I'm a little bit weird, but I want to throw this in the discussion:

CONAN RPG deals with murder, human sacrifices, mass slaughter, soul stealing demons etc., and someone thinks of a woman's bare breasts as offending?

I don't want to offend anyone here, still I have to ask naively, if the moral "problem" of nudity or the Temptress doesn't pale into a very silly issue compared to other parts of Hyborian life.

As a consequence, you have to cut the bloody parts of the Hyborian Age out of your game, too!

Besides: we haven't seen the Temptress yet, so maybe we should wait until the release before we condemn her.

 

[Raven Blackwell]

[deleted]

 

[Hyborian Apeman]

1. Wow: Seems I'm a lucky one to live in Germany. I'm in RPGs since 15 years and only once heard of a religious fanatic woman who throw a RPG in the corner (it still was usable and revered as a martyr's copy :wink: ).
Do you have really so many anti-RPG fanatics in the US?

I think they are a very vocal minority. They are the same group that burn Harry Potter books because they "teach children that witchcraft is OK".

For the most part the group consists of extreme fundamentalist Christians who also will not use a deck of playing cards because of its Toret origins.

As is the case with US media (I am not sure how the media is in Germany or the rest of the world), fringe extremists get a lot of media attention because it makes for more exciting news than the norm.

I have seen some anti-D&D literature (a little pamphlet) that was originally published in the early 80s. But for the most part, I would not say there is a large anti-gaming sentiment in the US.

 

[slaughterj]

And as for the BDS&M components like Thallis's (sp?) torture of Conan's slave girl in "Xuthal of the Dusk", or Valeria's torturing a bound girl for information with a light whip in "Red Nails"- are these necessary? It's not liek they are vital to the plot- Thallis could just have secured Conan's slave and then been eaten and Valeria could have just beaten the information of the girl in the usual way. The reason they are in there- to appeal to the vast readership who lives are so dull that they seek out such jaded thrills.

Maybe that's the reason they are there, or maybe that's how REH envisioned those situations to occur - not everything is about torture and sex, just most things As for whether it is necessary to the plot, well, a lot can be cut out of most works (e.g., most description), as not being "essential" to the plot, so that's not a valid criterion for whether the content should be present or not.

 

[Ranzadule]

It's not an image of feminity that is healthy to swell on.

Is that a typo or a very funny pun-type thing? :lol:

The great thing about RH was that he always had Conan judge people by their actions or inactions and not by their race or sex. That was pretty advanced for the time if you ask me. Sure their were women in the stories who lived by and bartered in promises of the flesh, but there were such women in the 20's and also today and throughout history. There were also women who took up the sword and wore pants and made their mark in the world. That's also pretty advanced thinking for a guy who wrote in the 20's.

As for the mystery class, what about the Falchion (Falcon) Brotherhood? I am busily collecting the books and I'm not sure if this group has been detailed yet. I cannot remember if they were in the books or if I'm rememebring them from the comics.

 

[Odovacar's Ghost]

It's why I usually armed with [at least] a knife. I was raped as a child and been attacked for the same purpose later in life. I've been stalked by men who think an independant woman needs to be 'taught her place'. I, like most women, am constantly under seige from the unwanted attentions of men.

Ah, so that is why you play Conan, so you can punish these evil men.

 

[Fyrestryke]

No need to drag this out (much) further, but I've been disappointed with the amount of reprinted material included in the supplements overall (especially the questionable parts). Prostitution is covered in Across the Thunder River, the Free Companies, Shadizar, Messantia, and Aquilonia. Isn't this overkill? There's also a lot of redundancy on religion, culture, feats, and illustrations (Aquilonia was the vilest offender on all charges).
-RH

I dunno. I kind of like that the books all follow a similar format. If a feat or religious flavor text fits the bill for both Aquilonia and Across the Thunder River, it should be included in both. The primary reason being that not every person is going to own both books. Therefore, for the same reason you are frustrated with duplication, someone else would be frustrated because a book they just paid a bunch of money for has all sorts of places that direct them to other books that they need to buy to use the info. That is why the duplication is a necessary thing.

I'm a completist too, but not everyone is.

 

[Raphael]

Geez, this thread has gone nuts. I'll add this:
I have mutilated my Conan books by using a hole punch to remove the bare breast. The pic don't bother me, but I really don't want my 9 year old daughter to see it.

I think Raven has a rather valid point and replies like this

Ah, so that is why you play Conan, so you can punish these evil men.

Are just childish and hurtful.

The very fact that she hangs out here (usually peaceably) on a forum that is overwhelmingly male for a game that is played overwhelmingly by men illustrates she is not a misandrist.

You're not, right?

Raphael the Puncher of Holes

 

[Jason Durall]

As I said earlier- there are Angry Mothers everywhere. They and the moral majority almost terminated D&D in the 80's for the mere fact of having 'demons' in the Monster Manuals. [It got so bad that the phrase 'Angry Mother Syndrome' or AMS was coined 8)] My mother burned all my D&D books, literally. These types are starting to get restless again- do we want to hand them ammo?

The idea that the activities and protests of the Moral Majority nearly caused the death of D&D in the eighties is utterly untrue. If anything, the increased profile actually helped TSR's sales.

That period was the most financially lucrative for TSR in many ways, helped in part by the greater profile given D&D by an extremely small number of vocal critics of the game. Concerned mothers didn't kill TSR (and D&D), bad decisions on the part of the company's management nearly destroyed the brand.

Furthermore, it is even less likely that any such attention will be given the pen-and-paper industry again, given the plethora of much easier targets, such as the flourishing computer game market full of media-ready screen grabs of horrendous violence and potentially objectionable imagery.

 

[Ranzadule]

And don't forget the pathetic attempts to chase Howard Stern as he goes to satellite radio. It's bad enough that they censor him on free radio but now they are talking about monitoring pay radio. How aobut you tell the friggin parents to PARENT if you don't want kids listening to or reading or watching "stuff"???

Sorry for the censorship side-rant. Back to bickering about cartoon boobies and imposing 21st Century ideals on an age that predated the rise of the Sons of Aryas...