Hyboria's Fallen Cover

[Raven Blackwell]

Actually I am going to be the sensible one and refrain from flaming here- as much as that shocks everyone. I really don't feel like getting into an arguement about this.

As for the Greek- they wrote it down, but like all conquering tribes they absorbed the defeated culture's myths into their own and rewrote to give their Gods dominance. Thus Hades takes Kore/Persephone as a unwilling wife represents the military conquest of a tribe that worshipped Her as a Goddess. The Peresus/Medusa myth is another example- in fact most myths where a guy with a sword kills a 'monster' in a foriegn land are mythical representations of invasion and conqueering. The victors write the history. [No pun intended Victor]

As for religion I am simply stating an observation- you ever see magic performed by a priest of Yaweh? I haven't.

Since this is getting way off topic you want to debate this any further just pm me and spare the rest of the list.

 

[taylor]

Ok, no flames or arguement, I just would like to know where the Greeks got it from.

 

[Raven Blackwell]

Hey, I'm not saying Conan isn't sexist. The whole whining about the Temptress class is pointless IMHO. It's pretty unfair also - Mongoose decided to give women a class designed mostly for them. It also sounds like a fun class to play, so what's with the complaints?

Conan as Howard wrote and the pastiche continue it yes is sexist. I am just saying that it can be just asa fun without the sexism. My game obviously doesn't contain scantily clad beauties in jewel encrusted outfits- or men for that matter- and has both male and female NPCs of imprtance. I really on plot, character deevloment and intergue to kepp my player's interest, not near pornography. I still have an over full table of 8+ players and waiting list of people waiting for my regular players to die or move out of town, cause unless I kick them out they don't leave any other way. And all but one of them are men.

Besides I agreed with Vincent that I will withhold judgement until the winds of commerce deliver the book into my hands.

Also there is the possibility of the male Tempter. After all the Dark Masciline exists as well as the Dark Feminine. It's just that in RL most men don't have much to complain about the way things are for them and thus never go looking for it. 8)

 

[toothill man]

Do you know then the myth of the witch in Eastern Europe; a kind of goddess who is one and three. She is represented under 3 forms : the young pretty girl (who lures men for sex), the mature woman (sort of symbol of fertility) and the aged women (cruel and wise).
The 3 have much powers and were (are) revered as godess but they are never seen together. They/She are/is called Baba Yaga in the Russian folklore. http://www.mythinglinks.org/BabaYaga.html
I wouldn't be surprised if there exist a common link between Baba Yaga and Celtic Godess's.

this is the base of the celtic goddess which is one of the oldest and based on a goddess who can be your mother one minute your friend the next and be the one to slip the knife into your back :shock:

 

[The King]

lunatic I say!

Though most tales represent Celts on the Isles of Britain or the Western continent, this people originate from the East. Thus it is well possible that the original myths evolved and new story woven as they progressed westward.

 

[Voltumna]

Going back to the origunal topic, the cover is good, but I find it disaponting. In the Hyborian world Zamorian thieves are supposed to be the greatest, and I think every mention of them by Howard, he always portayed them in red silken loinclothes and turbans, with short sowrds at their girdles and guile at their heatrs. Shevatas, the description of Zamorian thieves in the Tower of the Elephant, the thieves that stole Xaltotun's sarcophagus all were described like that. Well, they are not in that cover. Moreover and cliches apart, from the characters portrayed there, I can't tell a single one to be a thief, which is actually good for a thief because he/she is not conspicous. Those plates are always a great source of inspiration, so the omission of the prototypical Zamorian thief is a bummer. As an additional comment, the vignettes on the core book are great, so maybe throwing a couple of nicely done colour plates on a suplement would be awesome.

 

[toothill man]

their are two kinds of the theif the ones that stand out and the ones that get away with it :wink:

 

[Raven Blackwell]

lunatic I say!

He/She's a worshipper of the moon gods? 8)

Though most tales represent Celts on the Isles of Britain or the Western continent, this people originate from the East. Thus it is well possible that the original myths evolved and new story woven as they progressed westward.

True- a lot of evidence by common entomology of words and such gives strong evidence that the precursor to the Celtic tribes originally came from the Russian steppes. They were a restless and moody lot though and kept waking west until the hit the ocean. It the triple Goddess was their prinicpal diety figure it would explain why the basic concept exists across the former native tribes the length and breadth of the European continent.

As for Zamorian thieves and such I'll agree that it looks like the Zingarians seem to dominate the cover though they aren't known for being good thieves. I also have absolutely no idea which races have Temptress as a favoured class. The cover lacks an excessive amount of cheesecake though so no complaints here.

 

[toothill man]

(best homer voice)mmmm cheesecake :lol:

 

[Etepete]

lunatic I say!

True- a lot of evidence by common entomology of words and such gives strong evidence that the precursor to the Celtic tribes originally came from the Russian steppes. They were a restless and moody lot though and kept waking west until the hit the ocean. It the triple Goddess was their prinicpal diety figure it would explain why the basic concept exists across the former native tribes the length and breadth of the European continent.
[/quote]

I think people tend to overestimate the impact of the celts. The megaliths found around europe indicate far earlier pancontinental cultural connections: we don't need a conquering culture to explain why so many things are so universal: trade and travel is explanation enough.

 

[Raven Blackwell]

I think people tend to overestimate the impact of the celts. The megaliths found around europe indicate far earlier pancontinental cultural connections: we don't need a conquering culture to explain why so many things are so universal: trade and travel is explanation enough.

We're sort of getting off topic here, but I'll say this. I have no idea what the pre-Celts did indeed do back then. I wasn't there. I just said that there was some evidence that they might have done this. Nor did I say they conquered anyone. The population levels back then might have been thin enough that no one had to fight for territory. There might had been enough for anyone. Again I'm no expert on abcient cultures. But the Viking made it as far as Newfoundland, Canada so whose to say a bunch of horse loving tribes couldn't have rode across Eurasia? Since I'm a writer more than a scholar it makes a better story.....

In any case to avoid getting this topic more off topic, pm me with any counter argunements.

 

[The King]

I think people tend to overestimate the impact of the celts. The megaliths found around europe indicate far earlier pancontinental cultural connections: we don't need a conquering culture to explain why so many things are so universal: trade and travel is explanation enough.

The Picts that lived in the northen part of the British Island (Scottland) were an established culture well before the coming of the Celts. As we don't know many things of Celts before they didn't write down anything it is still harder to understand these naked picts who wore only tatoos for garments.
It is a fact that the invading culture almost always absorbs the conquered civilization, so the monolitic formations could come from the Picts.
Howard describes the Picts as one of the older civilisations with the Atlanteans. Atlantis sunk under the waves as did the Pict Islands but the latter folk had a well established colony on the continent. See Kull stories, especially the Shadow Kingdom).

Now you will say I always refer to this short story but I have to admit that this one give the most info (apart from the Hyborian Age) on the Howardian myth.

 

[Old Bear]

Because I was told to create a temptress class, not a bandit class.

Which is why I don't write professionally. I wouldn't want some hack editor telling me what to write based on market research and the immature desires of certain men. Let him learn how to write if he wants a bad cliche brought to life.

There isn't a writer alive who doesn't get edited. JK Rowling gets edited. What's more, all the ditirs at Mongoose have written thingsthemselves and of course been edited. The notion that these guys are 'hacks' is wrong and more than a little insulting.

 

[Etepete]

It is a fact that the invading culture almost always absorbs the conquered civilization

The Franks, the Goths, the Normans, the Huns, the ancient Jews, the turkomongolic invasions of China, the Crusader states makes me beg to differ. As often as not, the greatest assimilation is that of the conquering elite.

 

[The King]

It is a fact that the invading culture almost always absorbs the conquered civilization

The Franks, the Goths, the Normans, the Huns, the ancient Jews, the turkomongolic invasions of China, the Crusader states makes me beg to differ. As often as not, the greatest assimilation is that of the conquering elite.

The Romans absorbed many civilizations but integrated them in their own cultures (greek gods, then Christianism).
The same is all the more thue with the spreading christianism in the British Islands: it is completely mixed up with Celt culture.
In fact sometimes the only link between Christianism faith is the bible but all the belief developped afterwards are very specific to each regions.

 

[Etepete]

The Romans absorbed many civilizations but integrated them in their own cultures (greek gods, then Christianism).
The same is all the more thue with the spreading christianism in the British Islands: it is completely mixed up with Celt culture.
In fact sometimes the only link between Christianism faith is the bible but all the belief developped afterwards are very specific to each regions.

What we _percieve_ as celtic culture, but what might ulitmately be ingrained with the practices of earlier cultures. Maybe the celts brought little more than their language. The Romans had a long and stable reign, and had already a certain cultural leverage through their etruscogreek root. The celtic kingdoms where, as far as we know, many and ambulatory. I'm sure that the comparison with germanic or hunnic incursions and states is better than equating with the romans.

NB: in the context, I equate roman with christian. The church was very much a roman institution at the time.