Hull Damage in the 2022 Update

[kevinknight]

I posted this in another thread but received no response so I'll give it its own thread.

So when I spotted the below I thought it was an error...

Hull Damage: Each lost Hull point can be replaced with a Routine (6+) Mechanic check (1 hour, INT or EDU), consuming one ton of spare parts.

However, that's what it states in the FAQ.
In the previous book, one ton of spare parts repaired 10 Hull. If this is the case then ships have suddenly become 10x more expensive to repair. This also impacts not just cost, but the amount of space taken up by spare parts would be untenable. 40 tons of cargo consumed with spare parts could only repair 40 hull damage. This would make field repairs all but impossible.

 

[Geir]

Bug.
Speaking strictly as myself, so with no authority to state that you are correct, the copy of the updated core that I reviewed last year had the hull repair text missing (my comment was "Hull damage fell off…"). I suspect when it was added back into the text, it was not added back in in the same manner as the original text, which as you point out, is really the only way hull damage repairs make any degree of sense.

 

[Surge]

I would like to bump this thread and ask for an official clarification from an authoritative source.

They haven't changed it in the current pdf version, where they fixed the missing armour table, for example. Perhaps it is meant to be 100k Cr per ton?

 

[Feagal]

Bump on this... any word? Is 100k the true figure?

 

[MongooseMatt]

Please bear with us, we have not forgotten about this!

 

[Feagal]

Please bear with us, we have not forgotten about this!

Any word on this? Doesn't seem to be answered in the new High Guard (which looks great from what I've seen btw, thank you )

 

[Feagal]

I've looked at this today and I think I'm gonna go with the 100k, which initially I was not too happy with due to the cost for any travellers.

However, looking at the numbers in various scenarios for 100k per ton:

LIONESS
SHIP COST - 356,884,000,000
TOTAL REPAIR - 36,700,000,000

SCOUT
SHIP COST 45,000,000
TOTAL REPAIR 4,000,000

TYPE A
SHIP COST - 45,000,000
TOTAL REPAIR - 8,000,000

LAB SHIP
SHIP COST - 128,000,000
TOTAL REPAIR - 16,000,000


The above seem totally justifiable. Taking a 0 off if they are 10k seems too low to me.

To help with costs:

- Missions from corps, governments, and rich individuals will generally come with an agreement to repair any damage suffered (they'll want access to the ships logs for the time of the incident to verify what happened)

- Friendly ports may offer "mate's rates" on parts, 100k will be the full retail value

- I'll use:
Advanced Machine Parts (Industrial, High Tech / 1D x 5 / Cr75000 / Industrial +2, High Tech +1 Asteroid +2, Non-Industrial +1 / Machine components and spare parts, including gravitic components)
if the travellers want to try to pick any up from a trade deal in a prime location.

- They'll be frequently found on wrecks

 

[Arkathan]

Until we get another ruling, I am going with 10 hull points per ton of repair parts (MCr 1).
AND roll mechanics skill, with the effect reducing the amount needed, such that a critical success just means banging the hull plate back into place and welding it for free, like some of the other repair rolls.

 

[Alqualonde]

I've looked at this today and I think I'm gonna go with the 100k, which initially I was not too happy with due to the cost for any travellers.

However, looking at the numbers in various scenarios for 100k per ton:

LIONESS
SHIP COST - 356,884,000,000
TOTAL REPAIR - 36,700,000,000

SCOUT
SHIP COST 45,000,000
TOTAL REPAIR 4,000,000

TYPE A
SHIP COST - 45,000,000
TOTAL REPAIR - 8,000,000

LAB SHIP
SHIP COST - 128,000,000
TOTAL REPAIR - 16,000,000


The above seem totally justifiable. Taking a 0 off if they are 10k seems too low to me.

To help with costs:

- Missions from corps, governments, and rich individuals will generally come with an agreement to repair any damage suffered (they'll want access to the ships logs for the time of the incident to verify what happened)

- Friendly ports may offer "mate's rates" on parts, 100k will be the full retail value

- I'll use:
Advanced Machine Parts (Industrial, High Tech / 1D x 5 / Cr75000 / Industrial +2, High Tech +1 Asteroid +2, Non-Industrial +1 / Machine components and spare parts, including gravitic components)
if the travellers want to try to pick any up from a trade deal in a prime location.

- They'll be frequently found on wrecks

Scout ; Hull cost (new) 6 000 000
Type A : Hull cost (new) 12 000 000
As you said, the cost is totally justifiable. Sometime it will be cheaper to buy a new ship than to repair a wrecked one (especially with the cost of repairing critical damage.

 

[Feagal]

Scout ; Hull cost (new) 6 000 000
Type A : Hull cost (new) 12 000 000
As you said, the cost is totally justifiable. Sometime it will be cheaper to buy a new ship than to repair a wrecked one (especially with the cost of repairing critical damage.

Ah yes, I should have looked at hull cost rather than total ship cost, good point.

 

[Garran]

Yeah. A hull costs 50K per ton. It has 2/5 of that in hull points. So at 100K/ton of parts to repair one hull point... nope, doesn't add up, either cost-wise or mass-wise.

Also, while a plot coupon could be used to help out, the system really shouldn't make the PCs dependent on one, which they will be at the (presumably misprinted) price - and it heads into deux ex machina territory if they're somewhere without convenient access to a government/starport/etc.

 

[MyndkryM]

Yeah. A hull costs 50K per ton. It has 2/5 of that in hull points. So at 100K/ton of parts to repair one hull point... nope, doesn't add up, either cost-wise or mass-wise.

Also, while a plot coupon could be used to help out, the system really shouldn't make the PCs dependent on one, which they will be at the (presumably misprinted) price - and it heads into deux ex machina territory if they're somewhere without convenient access to a government/starport/etc.

I think you are correctly pointing out that repairing something like a hull isn't really something that can be properly or efficiently accomplished out in the field. If GM'ing, I'd most likely rule the cost to repair hull damage at a starport to run around Cr20,0000 per point of damage (if it's Cr50K per ton for a hull and 1 point of hull equates to 2.5 tons....it think that cost would check out). I'd also likely allow some Admin, Broker, Mechanical, Engineering skill check effect results to come into play.

Pretty much my take away would be....if you plan on getting into frequent space ship combat, best hope you have a patron with deep pockets, otherwise run away

For some context:

This is the USS Cole after a terrorist suicide attack in 2000, which as you can see by the image, had to be transported from Yemen back to it's home port in Norfolk, VA. BTW, the cost to repair that damage was approximately $250M (about 25% of the cost to initially build that ship).

 

[Arkathan]

So, aren't we talking about tons of repair parts to fix hulls?
So, NOT a starport or other equivalent repair facility.
Minor refits on HG2022 pg 72 cost ten percent over original. See HG for what's allowed.
You don't get a discount for selling the used parts, so who says they have to be in good repair?

 

[MyndkryM]

Good points.

And yeah...my initial cost of around Cr20,000 per hull point seems wrong. If it's 2.5 tons per hull point, then that would be Cr125,000 per hull point (excluding things like cost for streamlining and specialized hulls).

With that being taken into consideration, then hull repair rules in the Core Book 2022 (PG159) would be the cheaper alternative. Attempting to make sense some of the numbers; during ship construction maybe the 2.5 tons per point is not only the hull but also internal super structure????

Also...using the Critical Hit Repair Chart for hull repairs offers some good role-playing opportunities....so I do dig that.

 

[Alqualonde]

Don't forget that emergency repairs don't include salaries (already paid with your monthly expenses). Which contruction do.
By the way, construction take a lot of time. Haven't run the numbers but how long to repair 99% of a Free Trader's Hull?

 

[Arkathan]

Under refit rules, a day and by brunch on the next.

 

[phavoc]

So field repair has some nuances to it that would have to be discussed. 'Field' would mean NOT in a port repair facility, however an engineering ship could make repairs much like a port repair facility (in some SF games these are called Fleet Repair Docks and are mobile, so the port repair facility comes to you). They can make a LOT of repairs in a way similar to any port. But there are some factors that dictate whether or not that they would rather than could.

Those kinds of decisions are based upon factors like can the ship make it back on it's own? Would the FRD's repair facilities be better utilized to repair other damaged ships rather than one that needs heavy repair? Do you want to use up your existing field parts vs. sending the ship back to port where the parts are more plentiful? Those kinds of questions don't make good table-based die rolls.

So if you want to have an easily digestable line for players, make it a percentage of the damage - 10% of a ships damage (by Dtons) can be done by a crew using their available shipboard tools and resources. These types of repairs are not permanent and are meant to get the ship functional and operational. Damage between 10% and 25%, would require heavier repair, and ships spares are insufficient to fix this level of damage and it must be done at a port or by a dedicated repair ship (though not necessarily a fleet repair dock. So the systems would remain offline and sections of the ship may be uninhabitable/unpressurized. From 25-50% the ship would require repairs in a port or by a mobile repair dock. Anything greater than that absolutely requires a fully-equipped repair facility or a well-stocked fleet repair dock.

 

[Feagal]

Yeah. A hull costs 50K per ton. It has 2/5 of that in hull points. So at 100K/ton of parts to repair one hull point... nope, doesn't add up, either cost-wise or mass-wise.

Also, while a plot coupon could be used to help out, the system really shouldn't make the PCs dependent on one, which they will be at the (presumably misprinted) price - and it heads into deux ex machina territory if they're somewhere without convenient access to a government/starport/etc.

I see it as less of a plot coupon (nice phrase btw lol) and more the consequences that economic reality would force on someone offering missions - no one would agree to take their ship anywhere remotely rough for 200k if a little bit of damage would wipe out their profit.
Mission vendors would either be forced to up their cash offer, or at least give the mission runner some assurance that their expenses will be met if incurred in the line of duty.

Also I'd say if the players have a contact who would realistically let them buy parts at cost then I don't have a problem with them leveraging that.
And if they don't, well that's unlucky for them.

In terms of numbers though,

1) If each hull point represents 2.5 tons of hull then wouldn't it have initially cost 2.5x50k=125k for each hull point?

2) Or are we assuming that only parts of the structure contribute to hull points, just 2/5 of it? So 20k cost initially per hull point?

Btw I'm not suggesting that repairing a hull should use the same processes or amount of materials as building one from scratch, just trying to figure out if it's even in the same ball park, as in the same way you shouldn't need to throw in "story" reasons that make no sense just to help players out, you shouldn't also drop the costs when it doesn't make sense.

I think I can live with either 100k or 20k as it stands.
With 20k there would be less need for mission vendors to cover expenses (although still could be justified)

Lots to think about