Studio Cat
Cosmic Mongoose
Interestingly you haven't answered any of my questions regarding your assertions, yet concentrated on my own acknowledgement of being acerbic towards you. Your evasion speaks volumes.
How to make Traveller more popular with TTRPG players
- Thread starter MarcusIII
- Start date
CaptKraken
Banded Mongoose
Dude, I'm not doing your homework for you. I quoted numbers and sources. You can easily use any search engine to expand your knowledge.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
Backerkit is now another Kickstarter type crowdfunding site, as well as a fulfillment manager. Some companies crowdfund using Backerkit, some use Kickstarter, some use one of the others.
Onyx path alternate between Kickstarter campaigns and Backerkit campaigns depending on game lines for example.
Onyx path alternate between Kickstarter campaigns and Backerkit campaigns depending on game lines for example.
Studio Cat
Cosmic Mongoose
What convention were you using as an example? What major metropolitan area were you using as an example? What contributions to gaming have Mothership and Scum & Villainy made to gaming that they are given accolades for?
Usually when someone hides behind the defense of "I'm not going to do your homework for you", they can't back up their claims. Now are you going to keep tap-dancing or are you going to answer these simple questions?
CaptKraken
Banded Mongoose
Call me crazy, but I am not telling a random internet forum where I live, but it is a major US city with a lot of TTRPGers. One might even say it is one of the best gaming cities in the country.
I have already provided numerous examples of games, channels, websites, and content creators where you can find this information. I will give you a link to start:
This is a thread about expanding the player base, and if you want to do that, it will require a little work from the Traveller community.
I'm not tap dancing around anything. You want me to do the work for you. That's a common mistake made by communities that want to grow and wonder how to do it, but then demand the new people do all the work.
Now Happy Holidays, and have a great new year.
The Traveller fanbase does seem to focus on its own game conventions for some reason. Mongoose goes to a few conventions, but they aren't very many people.
Mothership and Aliens are outstanding convention/online pick up games, because they are designed for one shots and everyone knows exactly what the deal is when you sign up for them. So I personally am not surprised that they do very well in venues that focus on one shot games.
They are also horror games that happen to be sci fi. So, at least in my gaming groups (only about 20 people or so, admittedly), no one puts them in the same category as Traveller. There probably are people who run weekly games of Mothership or Aliens, but I don't know anyone who uses them like that.
I love games that do one specific thing really well when I want to do that specific thing. Saga of the Icelanders and Polaris are great games, but they are designed for 6-10 sessions. So I don't consider them when I want to do an open ended 3-5 year campaign like I use Traveller or Ars Magica or City of Mist for.
So, actually, I do think that they are apples to oranges. Or, at least, apricots to plums, to use those kinds of sources for "popularity".
Crowdfunding is trickier. Mongoose uses crowdfunding to gauge interest in fancy production value one offs like boxed sets. But there's not really any doubt that the product will get made and be available for regular purchase down the line. Individual developers are often crowdfunding to even make the game at all and they may or may not actually produce the game for regular purchase. That feels different to me, at least.
Mothership and Aliens are outstanding convention/online pick up games, because they are designed for one shots and everyone knows exactly what the deal is when you sign up for them. So I personally am not surprised that they do very well in venues that focus on one shot games.
They are also horror games that happen to be sci fi. So, at least in my gaming groups (only about 20 people or so, admittedly), no one puts them in the same category as Traveller. There probably are people who run weekly games of Mothership or Aliens, but I don't know anyone who uses them like that.
I love games that do one specific thing really well when I want to do that specific thing. Saga of the Icelanders and Polaris are great games, but they are designed for 6-10 sessions. So I don't consider them when I want to do an open ended 3-5 year campaign like I use Traveller or Ars Magica or City of Mist for.
So, actually, I do think that they are apples to oranges. Or, at least, apricots to plums, to use those kinds of sources for "popularity".
Crowdfunding is trickier. Mongoose uses crowdfunding to gauge interest in fancy production value one offs like boxed sets. But there's not really any doubt that the product will get made and be available for regular purchase down the line. Individual developers are often crowdfunding to even make the game at all and they may or may not actually produce the game for regular purchase. That feels different to me, at least.
MarcusIII
Cosmic Mongoose
That's my feeling about some of these very focused setting games too.
CaptKraken
Banded Mongoose
And yet some of them have many players, so the key growth question for me is how to ease the transition from those products to this one. Once the game is stale, what makes it easy to pick up Traveller instead of something else?
MarcusIII
Cosmic Mongoose
Not that they don't have a lot of players but how many years will they remain at a high level and how long will a person play them. E.g. I think it would be fun to play a person vs. the Aliens. How many times I'd like to play in that narrow theme would be limited. Unlike a wide open sci fi game. Damn good question on why a person would go from Alien to Trav rather than another generic themed Sci Fi game. Which is why I started this thread. I don't fully know. Only those types of players can answer. Which is where Mongoose market research needs to step in.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
While I like the merchant's Edition and Explorer's Edition - and would like to see a couple more - I still think Mongoose needs a "kick ass" starter boxed set.
I started a thread suggesting Death Station as the basis, but later convinced myself that, for maximum nostalgia, The Kinunir should be revisited.
Several adventures, patrons, encounters, a detailed sub-sector with loads of rumours, several planet write ups in some detail, maps, pre-gen characters, rules light booklet, equipment cards, NPC and animal cards, dice, tokens, etc...
I started a thread suggesting Death Station as the basis, but later convinced myself that, for maximum nostalgia, The Kinunir should be revisited.
Several adventures, patrons, encounters, a detailed sub-sector with loads of rumours, several planet write ups in some detail, maps, pre-gen characters, rules light booklet, equipment cards, NPC and animal cards, dice, tokens, etc...
Studio Cat
Cosmic Mongoose
You are still evading. I don't want you to do the work for me, I want you to be honest with us and tell us what your sources are so I can look at the raw data. Yet you won't, so I call your claims into question. This is the Internet and people, bots, and AI make up claims all the time. Hell, I had a guy tell me that he was the Second Coming of Elvis and that was just this morning! So I trust but verify a lot.
Now if you bothered to read this whole thread, you'll notice that I was the one who said that we have to stop talking and start doing when it comes to growing the Player base. I was also the one who posted a quick single page flyer about Traveller and asked for feedback on it. That's my bona fides.
Happy Krampusnacht and enjoy Festivus!
CaptKraken
Banded Mongoose
As a person who identifies as that exact player type, I'm glad you asked. That is why I've been so vocal in this thread.
As I mentioned earlier, I've read the forum for a few years, but I only created an account to thank Mongoose for Cluster Trucker and to comment on this topic.
MarcusIII
Cosmic Mongoose
That's a start. You like Cluster Trucker. I don't know if you are old enough but here's a song for the game: Or a start of an idea for one
CaptKraken
Banded Mongoose
Cluster Trucker represents how my players are going to play the game, and I'm okay with that. It also means I won't have to convert a ton of stuff or hand-wave sections of the story.
Personally, I like to play a more serious game and run more lighthearted stuff. I primarily appreciate the diversity of products, since the line has leaned heavily on the military in recent years.
I have invested a small fortune in MGT2e books since getting into the game, and while I haven't read them all, I have at least skimmed them all.
FWIW, I also really liked the new Borderlands Charted Space book. It provides the level of detail I want without being too restrictive in interpretation. The 5th Frontier War books look great and contain deep content (maybe too deep), but I don't ever see using them at my table, which is kind of how I feel about 80% of the product line. It's interesting, but what am I going to use it for?
I'm probably an outlier in terms of investment since I do like to get "all the stuff," and I still want a physical book. I would say that too much of the current material is more like one of those old Time-Life Book sets: neat to look at and go through a few times, but then it sits on the shelf for years until you want to look up a specific fact. That probably makes it stable for a publisher, but it doesn't really draw in players. Perhaps new readers and book buyers are two different things.
The adventures I've read, played, and/or run are generally decent, but pretty inconsistent. I have found I use the stuff in the TAS more often than other material.
Pirates is an interesting one since it is such an identifiable product and clearly connected to Traveller. It doesn't help the product line when the marquee campaign, at least in many people's eyes, is notoriously tricky to run. I'm certainly not the first person to say it needs a significant overhaul and a ton of up-front work to do right. It seems you get a decent number of new players and GMs who love the idea of the campaign and try to run it, only for the game to fall flat. That's not the best recipe for retaining players.
Personally, I like to play a more serious game and run more lighthearted stuff. I primarily appreciate the diversity of products, since the line has leaned heavily on the military in recent years.
I have invested a small fortune in MGT2e books since getting into the game, and while I haven't read them all, I have at least skimmed them all.
FWIW, I also really liked the new Borderlands Charted Space book. It provides the level of detail I want without being too restrictive in interpretation. The 5th Frontier War books look great and contain deep content (maybe too deep), but I don't ever see using them at my table, which is kind of how I feel about 80% of the product line. It's interesting, but what am I going to use it for?
I'm probably an outlier in terms of investment since I do like to get "all the stuff," and I still want a physical book. I would say that too much of the current material is more like one of those old Time-Life Book sets: neat to look at and go through a few times, but then it sits on the shelf for years until you want to look up a specific fact. That probably makes it stable for a publisher, but it doesn't really draw in players. Perhaps new readers and book buyers are two different things.
The adventures I've read, played, and/or run are generally decent, but pretty inconsistent. I have found I use the stuff in the TAS more often than other material.
Pirates is an interesting one since it is such an identifiable product and clearly connected to Traveller. It doesn't help the product line when the marquee campaign, at least in many people's eyes, is notoriously tricky to run. I'm certainly not the first person to say it needs a significant overhaul and a ton of up-front work to do right. It seems you get a decent number of new players and GMs who love the idea of the campaign and try to run it, only for the game to fall flat. That's not the best recipe for retaining players.
This.
At its core, Traveller is just roll 2D6 vs a target number with mods, when you even need to roll. Combat is optional and dangerous, and it always was. The core of the game is characters talking it out. Narrative is king.
It's also a collection of mostly independant modules. Character creation has nothing to do with the starship design sequence, neither of which overlap with world generation. Combat takes the products of those modules and does something with them, but is its own thing, as is Trade. You can use or not use those as you need to.
The unifying part is the task system, which wasn't even fully codified in Classic Traveller. The Referee literally just chose a target number and what mods applied aside from skill levels. Very rules light. But even the evolved and regularised Mongoose version is straightforward and flexible.
But heck... rules light? Basically EVERYTHING was rules light in 1977. When Traveller debuted in July 1977, two months after Star Wars did (although seven months after the pre-movie novel did. It's wise to not forget that while Traveller is grounded on previous decades' science fiction, the players have almost ALWAYS seen Star Wars first), there were only around 18 other games in existence that are considered tabletop RPGs. D&D was only three years old.
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actionman
Emperor Mongoose
Excellent choices.
CaptKraken
Banded Mongoose
Excellent. At times, I've thought I'm crazy for pointing this out in the system.
This is why I've been talking about new games so much in the thread. They are more alike than they are different.
To attract players from that space, Traveller doesn't need to change the rules; it just needs to put a big blinking sign around the 2d6 mechanic and highlight that almost everything else is modular.
The modular components allow the system to be used for extended play, unlike other systems. What the new player needs to know is that those systems are, in fact, optional at the start or can be added as required. You don't need it all up front as a new group. In fact, you probably don't want all of that upfront. If that dynamic isn't clear, then a new player or GM feels like they need to absorb too many systems and 50 years of lore all before they sit down to play. What long-time players often forget is that everything added to the game since they started playing has been trickling into the system, allowing existing players to pick it up gradually. New players have to pick up the entire system as it exists now, with Traveller, that can be a lot of weight.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
The '81 revised edition of CT introduced the great big number 8+ in the combat chapter. I should add that the target number was 8+ for combat in the original 77 rules, but the 81 revision made it big and obvious.
Long before Andy Slack wrote his White Dwarf article our group adopted that as the rule for every standard situational skill saving throw, with DMs for skill level, environmental effects, tools, high or low characteristics. We still changed the target number for certain situations based on raised difficulty,
We ignored that silly DGP unified task system with its task library, and continued to ignore it when MegaTraveller made it officially the Traveller task resolution system.
I am so glad Mongoose adopted the 8+ as the default target number for most things
Long before Andy Slack wrote his White Dwarf article our group adopted that as the rule for every standard situational skill saving throw, with DMs for skill level, environmental effects, tools, high or low characteristics. We still changed the target number for certain situations based on raised difficulty,
We ignored that silly DGP unified task system with its task library, and continued to ignore it when MegaTraveller made it officially the Traveller task resolution system.
I am so glad Mongoose adopted the 8+ as the default target number for most things
Another strength is that it is self contained. If you want or need it to be.
I'm one that had no other game to compare it to, when I got it for Christmas 1980. Devoured it, rolled up a subsector. Rolled up endless characters. Religiously stuck to the random encounter charts and combat results. Made some ships.
That was where we played for a long while, before I started picking up other products. In hindsight, I never did need to move outside of my imaginatively named "Subsector One" or the LBBs, but what does a 14 year old know?
I did want more. JTAS #7 is a precious and beloved part of my collection, the first extra I got. A starport, Aslan. A window into a broader gaming community. Gold.
All of that applies to MGT CRB, but better. It DOES have the advantage of 50 years of the RPG history, of lessons learned about what this thing is. I consider MGT2e22 CRB to be one of the best single gaming volumes I own.
I'm one that had no other game to compare it to, when I got it for Christmas 1980. Devoured it, rolled up a subsector. Rolled up endless characters. Religiously stuck to the random encounter charts and combat results. Made some ships.
That was where we played for a long while, before I started picking up other products. In hindsight, I never did need to move outside of my imaginatively named "Subsector One" or the LBBs, but what does a 14 year old know?
I did want more. JTAS #7 is a precious and beloved part of my collection, the first extra I got. A starport, Aslan. A window into a broader gaming community. Gold.
All of that applies to MGT CRB, but better. It DOES have the advantage of 50 years of the RPG history, of lessons learned about what this thing is. I consider MGT2e22 CRB to be one of the best single gaming volumes I own.
To be fair, Mongoose took what DGP were trying to do, and with over two decades worth of development and hindsight, sorted it out.
A lot of that was going back to CT, but there's DGP and TNE DNA in Mongoose Traveller too. I think TNE still has the most careers, as an example, and a good chunk of the ones that appear in MGT appeared in TNE first.
