Sales are Sales.
GURPS books are traditionally far more owned and read than played. Or used as sourcebooks for other systems.
OG Paranoia was FAR more owned than played back in the day. Not sure if that's changed.
How to make Traveller more popular with TTRPG players
- Thread starter MarcusIII
- Start date
GURPS books are traditionally far more owned and read than played. Or used as sourcebooks for other systems.
OG Paranoia was FAR more owned than played back in the day. Not sure if that's changed.
actionman
Emperor Mongoose
No, I am, I just don't like it when Seth speaks so quickly that what he's saying turns into a constant stream of verbosity.
actionman
Emperor Mongoose
People who want to learn more about a new game they're getting into, and people who want to learn about a game before they spend money on it.
That's an important point. Mothership and Traveller are two different games made for two different play experiences. Same with Free League's Alien RPG.
Some people do, but some are just mean. Some argue because they think it's funny, when it's really just petty. This forum is unspoiled, we should keep it that way.
Studio Cat
Cosmic Mongoose
Both Mothership and Scum & Villainy are entire games based around a single adventure type: survival horror and small package trade respectively. Traveller has been able to run both kinds of adventures for the past 50 years and many others. When you specialize too much, you breed in your own obsolescence. Mothership and Scum & Villainy are one trick ponies and get a lot of visibility at this time because the unpaid advertising for them is good. They don't have longevity.
CaptKraken
Banded Mongoose
I'm sure somebody said Traveller was a one-trick pony back in the '80s. I've been reading This is Free Trader Beowulf, and it's pretty clear there were numerous times when Traveller could have easily disappeared into the cosmos.
Earlier, you mentioned nobody plays these games in the wild. The next convention in my area lists several Mothership adventures, but none for Traveller or Scum and Villainy. At Start Playing Games, Mothership currently offers 20 options, Traveller 19, and well, Scum and Villainy is just 1, but if you include the core system, you get 28. Scum and Villainy may not be getting much playtime, but Blades in the Dark sure is.
My local game shop in a major metropolitan area sells both Mothership and Scum and Villainy. They do not carry Traveller. I asked about it, and they said it did not sell. They had tried in the past. FWIW, they are a successful hobby shop with several locations and a strong online presence. They also do seem to stock and sell through other Mongoose product lines.
Mechanically, both games have been discussed by game designers, reviewers, and critics, and have both been credited with significant contributions to the hobby. Mothership has won at least 3 Ennies.
Mothership month on Backerkit raised $858,000 to fund 27 products, including $400k+ on a campaign setting. By comparison, the Traveller Singularity Kickstarter raised `$224k USD. That is not a "one-trick pony."
HOWEVER, they are limited in what they do. I ran a year-long Scum and Villainy campaign and played a few Mothership one-shots. They were good games. I also found my way to Traveller because I was looking for something that could do a little more. I can't imagine I'm the only one with that experience.
What's probably a heretical position is that I think there's a lot more similarity between some of the narrative rule-light games and Traveller. The 2d6 basic mechanic with degrees of success is very close to the core Blades and other indie systems. I also see parallels between Traveller character creation and the Blades/PBtA playbooks, in that both put constraints on the PCs.
But the bigger point is that I WANT to play Traveller and get players excited about it, but damn, that process is rough at times. I did not have that experience with those other products because they were much more user-friendly.
Studio Cat
Cosmic Mongoose
When Mothership and Scum & Villainy have been around for 50 years and still played and are still profitable for their owning company, I will concede my point on longevity. What game convention in your area are you talking about? What major metropolitan area are you talking about? What contribution to the hobby have those games made? You have also compared a single Kickstarter to a month of Backerkit, now while I am unfamiliar with the Backerkit funding model it does seem to be an apples to oranges comparison.
I do applaud your Good Taste in wanting to play Traveller after your experiences with those other two games, though. It shows a keen and discerning mind at work.
I understand that I am being a bit of an ass here, but I do believe that the main reason why Traveller is not being played as much is exposure. Sure people have heard about the game, but while it gets mentioned, there are not as many demonstrations of it so people haven't been able to get a taste of what it has to offer.
actionman
Emperor Mongoose
Alien by Free League too. It's an Alien game, so the point is for the player character to interact with the xenomorphs at some point. If at least one scenario in the campaign doesn't feature the xenomorphs, then the players aren't playing what they signed up for, and I don't know how well FL Alien's rules support extended non-xenomorph campaigns. For Mothership, it's space horror, so if horror doesn't show up, that's a letdown.
Traveller can easily handle xenomorphs and horrifying situations as part of a normal campaign.
Micky
Emperor Mongoose
that does bring up the point of what players, new players, want to play. I was genuinely curious about this myself and raised that question in the Alien RPG subreddit. Why buy this game when Traveller can do Alien(s) and do it extremely well. Flipping the question, can Alien do what Traveller also does extremely well. Campaigns, setting hex-crawls. I was surprised to get some nice replies, as it might have seemed I was crashing the Alien party as a Traveller fan and got a few replies, and not surprisingly from some who had not even heard of Traveller.
It does seem that many are into into one shots, plop down and play, in Alien's case, reliving the movie experience rather than gaming a far fature Sci-Fi setting. It seems to me to be a game that is more nostalgia and will have a limited shelf life. It may do Alien(s) well, much as the Blade Runner RPG does (which naturally Traveller can do extremely well as well) but once you get past the initial thrill of RPG'ing out the initial premise.... it is just too limited in scope. Honestly I'll be surprised if either game is still around in 10 years or so.
A can of worms that is still unopened of course is the nature of plop and play one shot adventures. There are few reviews of Mongoose adventures/campaigns out there and the few that are, are not exactly positive. It's a shame for I did mini reviews of the three Core Adventures for the Core Sector Campaign guide I'm writing and while there was some room improvement tweaks I thought they were well written and interesting adventures.
Yet for reviews out there in internet land?
Absolute crickets man.
IanBruntlett
Emperor Mongoose
Micky
Emperor Mongoose
For sure I love Tony's videos but wish he reviewed them. I've talked with him in his comments about that. He is adamant about avoiding spoilers which of course makes reviewing an adventure impossible.
He says it’s about spoilers but it’s hard not to suspect that a review means reading, then writing, editing work and a slower release. Otherwise he could do actual, critical reviews of rulebooks, at the very least. He just likes leafing through the books and extemporising. I stopped watching his videos because they add very little value. Which is a huge shame.
IanBruntlett
Emperor Mongoose
I suspect Mongoose underestimates the amount of investment a decent reviewer makes in reviewing a title (disclosure I am the Reviews Editor for the ACCU's CVu magazine).
I am currently running the adventures in The Marches Adventures 1-5 and won't finish until some time in 2026. I've made a note to review it when it's all over...
Micky
Emperor Mongoose
well reviewing is not easy for sometimes you ... just have to say hard to say things. Sometimes people just don't want to go there. Afraid of offending people I suppose. I reviewed albums for many years for a popular music site and the funny thing some of the best feedback I got from musicians were the ones that were not glowing. Yes you must be respectful and for sure know what you are talking aboutt. It isn't easy to be a reviewer I suppose but I would have loved to see him try it, he has so much experience with the game. He could provide a great insight in the game, strengths and weaknesses. I don't fault him for not, but agree it is a shame.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
It tends to be expectations, and pre exposure.
I'm pretty sure Dungeons And Dragons, or DAD, benefitted from both the original gangster, mythology, folk tales and fairy tales, as well as nearly a century of adventure and fantasy stories, with recognizable archetypes, that have already reached their final forms.
And science fiction role playing games have to present their characters and settings in a way that players can understand.
Which is why ShadowRun and MechWarrior are so easy to digest.
I'm pretty sure Dungeons And Dragons, or DAD, benefitted from both the original gangster, mythology, folk tales and fairy tales, as well as nearly a century of adventure and fantasy stories, with recognizable archetypes, that have already reached their final forms.
And science fiction role playing games have to present their characters and settings in a way that players can understand.
Which is why ShadowRun and MechWarrior are so easy to digest.
MarcusIII
Cosmic Mongoose
Yes, the person who I had search had never searched for or read anything about Traveller. Google collects your search and browsing history to customize search results.
MarcusIII
Cosmic Mongoose
I have found a less complicated rule set often helps with younger players. Cepheus Deluxe for instance. I took those rules and tweaked for my players. Gave them each a PDF. It's closer to CT but better. From the Mongoose 1 SRD
CaptKraken
Banded Mongoose
This is a solid point. I used to do book reviews in the genre fiction space. If a review contained constructive criticism, the author was often very open to the feedback. The fan base usually wouldn't react well to anything less than a 5-star review. Even worse if we revisited a beloved "classic" with a modern lens.
I can report, from firsthand experience, that providing honest reviews while trying to grow your online viewers/listeners/readers is challenging, since you often need the product's existing fan base to find you if you don't already have an audience. A good reason most of the bigger online RPG reviewers cover a lot of different products, not just one product line. Seth's Traveller reviews didn't start until after he'd already established a fan base.
It would be a challenge to build a Traveller content channel that is both interesting to established players while also welcoming to new players.
CaptKraken
Banded Mongoose
You are. Thank you for demonstrating a point I've made several times earlier in the thread.
If you are unfamiliar with Backerkit or the last 15 or so years of game design, I'm not sure how you are making your comparison.
This seems like a comparison of apples to apples to me. Two sci-fi RPG campaign books backed by crowdfunding the same year seem pretty comparable to me. One raised 2X the other with 5X in backers. Players are voting with their dollars.
If longevity is the primary stumbling block here, then most of my same points can be made by looking at Call of Cthulhu or other Chaosium products. They nearly went bankrupt a few years ago, yet they've rebuilt the product line, grown their player base, and now have a significant online presence. You could also look at the newer versions of Twilight 2000, Shadowrun, or Cyberpunk, to name just a few titles that have longevity but are attracting new players.
"Indie" games and old classics are finding success and attracting new players through modern production values, cleaner rule presentation, online tools, streaming examples of play, and by creating welcoming places to game.
