How *mature* is your Conan?

[Supplement Four]

If they're older than 23, they'll wonder why the hell they came to a junior high school nerd's role playing game.
"Adult" isn't the same as "gratuitous".

Nice insult. But, I'll ignore it.

We play a hard core game. Pirates will rape mothers in front of their kids. Virgins are sliced open and have their entrails pulled from them as demons laugh. Chunks of meat will slide off a warrior's axe after he's sunk the thing in sombody's head.

This isn't "gratuitous". This is the Conan universe. In case you didn't know, "gratuitous" means "being done without appearant reason or justification".

This is adult atmosphere for a grim and gritty, dark fantasy game.

There are no junior high school nerds here. Actually, we're all white collar professionals with families.

If by "adult" you're speaking of the plot, then our games qualify on that level, too. Typically we have convoluted, heavy political plots (especially when nobles are involved, if our other games are any indication). They're much more than the typical "go-here-do-that" type of game.

They may start out that way, but the stories get pretty damn interesting.

I have a couple of strong Christians that come to my games (I'm a strong Christian, myself). I always warn them what type of game they're getting into. We always default to more "realistic" games. Some people can't take it, and that's fine. But, the world is not a nice place (and it's definitley not represented as such in the Conan stories).

So, description of what occurs in the game can get quite "disturbing" sometimes.

This isn't "gratuitous", brother. This is "Conan".

At least, it's our version of Conan. We're not doing the Saturday Afternoon Cartoon Conan. We're doing the oh-my-gods-what-have-I-gotten-myself-into Conan.

It can get rough.

But, that's the way we like it.

It's definitely not PG-13.

 

[The King]

Very long ago (!) as I begun playing at Call of Cthulhu, the unexperimented PCs were observing a secret ceremony at night in a glade in some East-European country. The cultists, men and women, were dancing naked around a black dark monolith in a huge night of debauchery and orgy. The chief cultist was sacrificing a new born to Shub-Niggurath as a kind of offering for some dark fertility rite. He took the baby by the feet, gave it some motion around his body and crushed its head against the cold stone.
Most investigators went insane that night...

I never considered this gratuitous because this was the dark reality in those dark time (and well before) where human sacrifices were always a part of the society, even if some religious movements (especially Christians in Western Europe and Muslims in Eastern Europe) prohibited these Pagan worships.

 

[LilithsThrall]

If they're older than 23, they'll wonder why the hell they came to a junior high school nerd's role playing game.
"Adult" isn't the same as "gratuitous".

Nice insult. But, I'll ignore it.

We play a hard core game. Pirates will rape mothers in front of their kids. Virgins are sliced open and have their entrails pulled from them as demons laugh. Chunks of meat will slide off a warrior's axe after he's sunk the thing in sombody's head.

This isn't "gratuitous". This is the Conan universe. In case you didn't know, "gratuitous" means "being done without appearant reason or justification".

This is adult atmosphere for a grim and gritty, dark fantasy game.

There are no junior high school nerds here. Actually, we're all white collar professionals with families.

If by "adult" you're speaking of the plot, then our games qualify on that level, too. Typically we have convoluted, heavy political plots (especially when nobles are involved, if our other games are any indication). They're much more than the typical "go-here-do-that" type of game.

They may start out that way, but the stories get pretty damn interesting.

I have a couple of strong Christians that come to my games (I'm a strong Christian, myself). I always warn them what type of game they're getting into. We always default to more "realistic" games. Some people can't take it, and that's fine. But, the world is not a nice place (and it's definitley not represented as such in the Conan stories).

So, description of what occurs in the game can get quite "disturbing" sometimes.

This isn't "gratuitous", brother. This is "Conan".

At least, it's our version of Conan. We're not doing the Saturday Afternoon Cartoon Conan. We're doing the oh-my-gods-what-have-I-gotten-myself-into Conan.

It can get rough.

But, that's the way we like it.

It's definitely not PG-13.

My statement wasn't meant to be an insult, because I honestly thought you weren't being serious. There's such a distinct difference between adult and "adult" that I thought you were pulling our collective legs. I'm sorry to see you weren't.
You give yourself away when you say that you've thrown in such descriptions in order to create a adult environment. An adult game focuses on the deeper dynamics behind sex, power, evil, etc. It doesn't avoid using descriptions of that stuff, but it doesn't confuse describing it with creating an adult environment. An "adult" game (that is, games which claim to be adult, but aren't), much like pornography, confuses the surface appearance with the real thing - it thinks the setting is created with such descriptions.

 

[Style]

I thought it was gratuitous as well, LT.

My game is very mature, and nude females have made several appearances. I try to describe them in the same manner REH did, leaving the players to add the R rated details they require in their imaginations.

In case you didn't know, "gratuitous" means "being done without appearant reason or justification".

Here is an example of how REH describes a woman with her finer points displayed:

A close-knit clump of figures emerged from the shadows beyond the huts and started down the road — three huge black men carrying a slender, struggling figure between them. Conan caught the glimmer of pale limbs writhing in the starlight, even as, with a convulsive wrench, the captive slipped from the grasp of the brutal fingers and came flying up the road, a supple young woman, naked as the day she was born.

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Shadows_in_Zamboula

Notice he never used the term "cooch", even though it was clearly on display. It would be reasonable to say that there is no "apparent reason" or "justification" to use such a term in his description.

I prefer the REH method over the "highly detailed descriptions of things that are better left to the imagination" method, but that is just my humble opinion.

 

[Old Bear]

They're roleplayers. Half of them will have passed out from over-excitement by the time he finishes, no matter how old they are.

 

[Vortigern]

A Cimmerian woman in Aquilonia is called a slave.

Amen.

 

[Supplement Four]

I'm sorry to see you weren't.

Well, the idea is to put the players in their characters' shoes. To make them feel like they were there (and to server the atmosphere of the game).

No need to be sorry for me. This is good game-mastering in the eyes of my group. They'll eat this stuff up.

You see, it's one thing to be bland and say, "OK, there was a huge party last night. People were up to all hours. You were in it, and now you're hung over."

In my opinion, it's actually better story telling to pick an event that they were remember--maybe something that will disturb or excite them a bit--to get them "in" the action.

If you don't GM that way, then it should be me saying that I'm sorry to hear that about you.

I've said this before, but story-telling is king in my group.

Our games are interesting, genre-specific stories that lean towards realism within whatever universe we happen to be playing in.

The Maul, in Arenjun, is a place where I would expect what I described above to happen. And, my point is to make the night of drinking and whore-swapping as memorable and "real" as possible so that my players will "feel" the atmosphere that is "Conan".

You give yourself away when you say that you've thrown in such descriptions in order to create a adult environment. An adult game focuses on the deeper dynamics behind sex, power, evil, etc.

I should tell you about this Traveller game we played, where one of the PCs was naturally turning psionic, and in the process, was "learning" his ancestry from his own DNA (not unlike some of the concepts in Dune).

The PC would have dreams that were so real that he couldn't distinguish between the dream and reality. It was all part of the process (and the plot was rather convoluted, dealing with the Ancients visiting Earth ages ago and gardening the humans so that they "grow" properly into something more than what we are today--spearheading evolution...the plot got deep). But, one of these "dreams" that may have been real (the PC was actually re-living experiences of his ancestors locked in his DNA) had the PC waking up on a cold slab. He was on all fours. Something was happening to him. It was hot. He was in a tent. He looked left, and he could see a pyramid being built. It was ancient Egypt on Earth.

And, some Egyptian guard was having sex with him--and the PC wasn't a man, but a woman.

That was a weird feeling for the PC. But, it served the plot of the game. And, it stretched into concepts that you may have read about in Dune (if you've ever read that series of books).

Incredible game. It's one of those we still talk about.

Again, it was PG-13, either.

 

[Supplement Four]

Notice he never used the term "cooch", even though it was clearly on display.

Just to be clear, I used "cooch" for this forum only. I tried to clean it up a bit.

In the game, it will be more descriptive (and not as "modern" sounding).

 

[LilithsThrall]

I'm sorry to see you weren't.

Well, the idea is to put the players in their characters' shoes. To make them feel like they were there (and to server the atmosphere of the game).

No need to be sorry for me. This is good game-mastering in the eyes of my group. They'll eat this stuff up.

You see, it's one thing to be bland and say, "OK, there was a huge party last night. People were up to all hours. You were in it, and now you're hung over."

In my opinion, it's actually better story telling to pick an event that they were remember--maybe something that will disturb or excite them a bit--to get them "in" the action.

If you don't GM that way, then it should be me saying that I'm sorry to hear that about you.

I've said this before, but story-telling is king in my group.

Our games are interesting, genre-specific stories that lean towards realism within whatever universe we happen to be playing in.

The Maul, in Arenjun, is a place where I would expect what I described above to happen. And, my point is to make the night of drinking and whore-swapping as memorable and "real" as possible so that my players will "feel" the atmosphere that is "Conan".

You give yourself away when you say that you've thrown in such descriptions in order to create a adult environment. An adult game focuses on the deeper dynamics behind sex, power, evil, etc.

I should tell you about this Traveller game we played, where one of the PCs was naturally turning psionic, and in the process, was "learning" his ancestry from his own DNA (not unlike some of the concepts in Dune).

The PC would have dreams that were so real that he couldn't distinguish between the dream and reality. It was all part of the process (and the plot was rather convoluted, dealing with the Ancients visiting Earth ages ago and gardening the humans so that they "grow" properly into something more than what we are today--spearheading evolution...the plot got deep). But, one of these "dreams" that may have been real (the PC was actually re-living experiences of his ancestors locked in his DNA) had the PC waking up on a cold slab. He was on all fours. Something was happening to him. It was hot. He was in a tent. He looked left, and he could see a pyramid being built. It was ancient Egypt on Earth.

And, some Egyptian guard was having sex with him--and the PC wasn't a man, but a woman.

That was a weird feeling for the PC. But, it served the plot of the game. And, it stretched into concepts that you may have read about in Dune (if you've ever read that series of books).

Incredible game. It's one of those we still talk about.

Again, it was PG-13, either.

You've got a fundamental flaw in your thinking - namely that you need to be gratuitous in order to tell a good story.
Good stories don't need cheap tricks.

 

[Barbarossa Rotbart]

It's all a matter of detail and (of cause) style.!
Some think that a vague description is enough, others think that they have to describe everything in detail!

In an official adventure for DSA ("Unsterbliche Gier" for those who want to know) an important NSC was nude and she was described in detail (incl. the colour of her pubic hair).

 

[Supplement Four]

You've got a fundamental flaw in your thinking - namely that you need to be gratuitous in order to tell a good story.
Good stories don't need cheap tricks.

Good stories don't necessarily need to be rated G either.

Do you think The Exorcist or Goodfellas would be the great movies they are with all the disturbing scenes in them cut out?

Not all stories need stuff like that. It depends on the story. The Princess Bride is a beautiful story, told well just the way it is.

On the other hand, Casino would be a less effective movie without the scene where Pesci puts the guys head in a vice and pops out his eye.

It is you who have a fundamental flaw in thinking that all stories can be told from a "G" rated perspective. Some can, and some are quite good that way.

Other stories suffer without scenes that describe the universe faithfully.

Again, it depends on the story.

 

[LilithsThrall]

You've got a fundamental flaw in your thinking - namely that you need to be gratuitous in order to tell a good story.
Good stories don't need cheap tricks.

Good stories don't necessarily need to be rated G either.

Do you think The Exorcist or Goodfellas would be the great movies they are with all the disturbing scenes in them cut out?

Not all stories need stuff like that. It depends on the story. The Princess Bride is a beautiful story, told well just the way it is.

On the other hand, Casino would be a less effective movie without the scene where Pesci puts the guys head in a vice and pops out his eye.

It is you who have a fundamental flaw in thinking that all stories can be told from a "G" rated perspective. Some can, and some are quite good that way.

Other stories suffer without scenes that describe the universe faithfully.

Again, it depends on the story.

And here you demonstrate another flaw in your thinking - one I pointed to earlier.
An adult game focuses on the deeper dynamics behind sex, power, evil, etc. It doesn't avoid using descriptions of that stuff, but it doesn't confuse describing it with creating an adult environment. An "adult" game (that is, games which claim to be adult, but aren't), much like pornography, confuses the surface appearance with the real thing - it thinks the setting is created with such descriptions.
There's a big difference between being against prurience and being puritanacal.

 

[Style]

Other stories suffer without scenes that describe the universe faithfully.

So Howard wasn't describing his universe faithfully b/c he didn't mention cooch in any of its forms in his tales?

Most would say that REH is the quintessential story teller of the Conan universe. Story telling is key in my game as well, and I try to emulate his style. I personally don't feel his tales suffered b/c they lacked descriptions like the one you gave. Others may not agree.

 

[Supplement Four]

And here you demonstrate another flaw in your thinking - one I pointed to earlier.

No, I understood what you said, and I addressed it above. "Adult" can mean being mature enough to watch/listen a story with "mature content". And, "adult" can mean the maturity to follow a mature plot (regardless of sex or violence).

What you don't seem to understand is that different types of stories, if told well, may require a little from both of those definitions.

If you're doing a story about Amelia Earhart, crashing in the jungle, speculating on how she might have survived, you can probably tell a good story without any disturbing scenes whatsoever.

Then again, if you're telling a story about the Rape of Nankin, which also occured in 1937, your story will be less effective unless you convey the horror those people went through.

A good story teller is faithful to his story's "universe".

 

[Supplement Four]

So Howard wasn't describing his universe faithfully b/c he didn't mention cooch in any of its forms in his tales?

Most would say that REH is the quintessential story teller of the Conan universe. Story telling is key in my game as well, and I try to emulate his style. I personally don't feel his tales suffered b/c they lacked descriptions like the one you gave. Others may not agree.

I quite agree that Howard told most of his stories well. And, I think he is quite graphic in a lot of them. His tales did not suffer because he didn't go with the rated "G" angle. Part of the appeal of REH is his work's graphic grittiness.

Which is what I am portraying in my game.

 

[Style]

So Howard wasn't describing his universe faithfully b/c he didn't mention cooch in any of its forms in his tales?

Most would say that REH is the quintessential story teller of the Conan universe. Story telling is key in my game as well, and I try to emulate his style. I personally don't feel his tales suffered b/c they lacked descriptions like the one you gave. Others may not agree.

I quite agree that Howard told most of his stories well. And, I think he is quite graphic in a lot of them. His tales did not suffer because he didn't go with the rated "G" angle. Part of the appeal of REH is his work's graphic grittiness.

Which is what I am portraying in my game.

I only have the one scene you described as a sample, so the sample set is small, but based off of that, I would not equate your portayal of "graphic grittiness" to Howard's. The difference is not the content, it's the delivery.

 

[Supplement Four]

I only have the one scene you described as a sample, so the sample set is small, but based off of that, I would not equate your portayal of "graphic grittiness" to Howard's. The difference is not the content, it's the delivery.

Well, thank Bel you're not playing in my game, then. :wink:

 

[LilithsThrall]

And here you demonstrate another flaw in your thinking - one I pointed to earlier.

No, I understood what you said, and I addressed it above. "Adult" can mean being mature enough to watch/listen a story with "mature content". And, "adult" can mean the maturity to follow a mature plot (regardless of sex or violence).

What you don't seem to understand is that different types of stories, if told well, may require a little from both of those definitions.

If you're doing a story about Amelia Earhart, crashing in the jungle, speculating on how she might have survived, you can probably tell a good story without any disturbing scenes whatsoever.

Then again, if you're telling a story about the Rape of Nankin, which also occured in 1937, your story will be less effective unless you convey the horror those people went through.

A good story teller is faithful to his story's "universe".

Its abundantly obvious that you -didn't- understand what I meant. You should reread it. I did -not- say that adult games must be G rated. What I said was that adult games don't avoid using descriptions of sex, power, evil, etc. But I also took pains to say as clearly as I could that adult games don't need gratuitous descriptions of sex, power, evil, etc. in order to set the setting. Adult themes are about the deeper dynamics behind sex, power, evil, etc. That's why they don't need gratuitous descriptions. Such descriptions, like porn, are all about the superficial. Further, I'll add, throwing in gratuitous descriptions just for the sake of them being in there can keep people from seeing the deeper issues the story tries to address. That is to say, such gratuitous descriptions prevent a story from being adult.

 

[Supplement Four]

But I also took pains to say as clearly as I could that adult games don't need gratuitous descriptions of sex, power, evil, etc. in order to set the setting. Adult themes are about the deeper dynamics behind sex, power, evil, etc. That's why they don't need gratuitous descriptions. Such descriptions, like porn, are all about the superficial. Further, I'll add, throwing in gratuitous descriptions just for the sake of them being in there can keep people from seeing the deeper issues the story tries to address. That is to say, such gratuitous descriptions prevent a story from being adult.

Your problem is that you're stuck on the word "gratuitous", and it's not clear to me if you really understand what the word means. To help you understand, it means "not needed".

A scene involving sex is not gratuitous just because it has sex in it. (That's the way you seem to be using the word--as if all sex and violence is gratuitous.) Was that sex central to the plot? Was it needed?

If it was needed to further the story, then it is incorrect to call it "gratuitous sex".

If violence is not needed to further the plot, then it is correct to call it "gratuitous violence".

My scene above, that I will play out in my game tomorrow morning, is not gratuitous. It serves the plot. It creates the atmosphere. It is needed to do those things, and therefore I am not using gratuitous descriptions.

 

[LilithsThrall]

A good story doesn't need cheap tricks and an adult environment doesn't need porn to be identifiable as an adult environment.
Now, since I know that you are compelled to get the last word, you can do so. I'm done.