How many clergy?

[khazwind]

I'm starting a game, centered on a small Orlanthi hill fort and surrounding steads. There's about 450-500 inhabitants total.

My question is, how many of them will be active members of cults? (ie initiate level and above).

I read once that Greg Stafford estimates the rune-levels to be about 2% of the population, which would give my area about 10 rune level NPCs.

I'm thinking that's too much. Bear in mind the large numbers of initiates and lay members to support them. Also, this is a pokey, out of the way area. There wouldn't be that many experienced and dedicated people.

At the moment, my answer would be to accept the 2% but to say that of that 2% roughly 80-90% are initiates while the remainder are more advanced. Similarly, of that remainder 80-90% are acolytes, with the remainder being rune level.

I'd really welcome some insight on how others work out the ratios of lay vs initiate+ members of cults in their campaigns.

ps Of course in larger population centers, there would likely be higher level NPCs. So maybe the ration of Initiate vs Acolyte vs Runelevel is a question of location.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

I'm starting a game, centered on a small Orlanthi hill fort and surrounding steads. There's about 450-500 inhabitants total.

My question is, how many of them will be active members of cults? (ie initiate level and above).

With Orlanthi, the general rule is all* adults are initiates. This may not be the case with other cultures

*All = approx 85% when discussing the Orlanthi

 

[Lord High Munchkin]

Take into consideration that if there are 450-500 inhabitants, perhaps a couple of hundred of those are going to be non-adults (or non-initiates, for whatever reason)....

 

[Ilkka]

I read once that Greg Stafford estimates the rune-levels to be about 2% of the population, which would give my area about 10 rune level NPCs.

I'm thinking that's too much. Bear in mind the large numbers of initiates and lay members to support them. Also, this is a pokey, out of the way area. There wouldn't be that many experienced and dedicated people.

It's your game, so you get to decide.

Lord High Munchkin makes an excellent point. But assuming the 400-500 inhabitants are all 15+ years old and initiated (85% to Orlanth and Ernalda, 15% to other gods), here's my two cents:

Even in a backwater there may be rune level NPC's experienced and dedicated - in agriculture, herding, rainmaking, childbearing, etc. etc. Gloranthan magic is everywhere, and experience and dedication don't necessarily involve heroics. Even if the game system might only have data for the heroics.

Yours,
Ilkka

 

[Utgardloki]

For my D&D games, I was using the assumption that there was approximately 1 cleric-type (cleric, shaman, druid et al) for every 30 people. In Runequest terms, the 2% figure is in the same ball park.

Of course, your milage may vary, etc. In a D&D game, it is assumed that NPC clergy are primarily clerics and druids, which makes for some rather interesting consequences. In Runequest, it is certainly possible that the majority of the clergy does not have any spellcasting ability. I think for my runequest: iron kingdoms campaign I would probably say about 3% of the clergy, or about 3% of 2% or about 1 out of 1600 have divine magic.

On the other hand, Glorantha is based on the thesis that magic is very common, especially if we are talking about rune magic.

Another factor to consider is that a pokey out of they way area may have more exceptional NPCs than a regular, well-travelled area. They need them. In my "Audor" D&D campaign, I played up the "frontier" flavor, which meant that finding NPCs of 5th-8th level was quite common. A big city may have more high level NPCs because there is a bigger population, but the frontier has a higher ratio of exceptional NPC/normal NPC.

Also, just because a divine spellcaster is out there does not mean the PCs know it. I've had a number of divine spellcasters tucked away as local shamans or priestesses who went unnoticed. So PCs would typically (unless they look for them) probably only see about 1/3 of the divine spellcasters out there, or one divine spellcaster for every 4800 NPCs if you are using my Iron Kingdoms estimates, or one divine spellcaster for every 150 NPCs if using Greg Stafford's.

Of course, your original question was who would be "initiate level and above". I note on page 80 of the MRQ rulebook that initiates have access to teachers of spells, but that does not mean that all initiates actually take advantage of that. I would say most initiates don't or else only learn minimal magic. So the number of initiates would vary widely from area to area, depending on how stringent the local cults are, but in general would be 10-80%. The number of NPCs with magic would be whatever is determined for the campaign.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

In Runequest, it is certainly possible that the majority of the clergy does not have any spellcasting ability

I think this is the single most bizarre statement I have seen on these boards! One of the hallmarks of Runequest was always that *Everyone* had spellcasting ability

 

[Osentalka]

The Orlanthi in Glorantha are all (85%) initiates. And the figure of 2% being even more involved in cults is also an Orlanthi number.

Dara Happans are mostly only Lay Members, with much lower initiate figures. But IMHO the 2% being "clergy" also applies there.

 

[kintire]

I think this is the single most bizarre statement I have seen on these boards! One of the hallmarks of Runequest was always that *Everyone* had spellcasting ability

I THINK what he means is that because in DnD "Cleric" is a class that comes with spellcasting ability all clerics will be spellcasters, whereas in RuneQuest you could build a priest (someone who oversees ceremonies.. not a Rune Priest obviously!) as a non spellcaster.

I'm not convinced he's right: all DnD priests are not Clerics... many or most will be Experts. In Glorantha at least all priests will be spellcasters... but then as duncan pointed out, so will most other people. Not everyone: the Orlanthi are unusual in initiating as a matter of course. Still I wouldn't be surprised if practically every member of that stead had some sort of magic, and some religious rank... even if its in the cults of Voriof/Voria.

 

[TRose]

I think 2% a good number . But I also think most of the Rune level would be non addventure types. Most Rune level would be devoted to Barntar the Ploughman, Ernalda, Chalana Arroy and a stay at home Issaries types . I have felt that for every Humakt and Stormbull Rune Lord out there are 10 Rune Priest to Barntar , but who going to pay attention to some grizzled old farmer with a 100% in farming(lore)

 

[Cleombrotus]

I once wrote out a Lightbringer Clan Council and ended up with a large amount of rune level characters. It looked a bit mad, but I justified it. So within the Tribe this clan is reknowned for their piety and the fact that they have a lot of rune level characters on the council...simple. Conversely I think that you can justify the reverse as well, since there are plenty of real world organisations that should technically have a role filled by an expert but the role simply gets filled by someone prepared to or forced to do it.
I wouldn't worry about it too much. Interesting characters is the most important thing.

 

[StephenT]

who going to pay attention to some grizzled old farmer with a 100% in farming(lore)

People who enjoy eating food each year, rather than starving.

 

[Utgardloki]

In Runequest, it is certainly possible that the majority of the clergy does not have any spellcasting ability

I think this is the single most bizarre statement I have seen on these boards! One of the hallmarks of Runequest was always that *Everyone* had spellcasting ability

Note that I said that it is possible.

In a setting like Glorantha where everybody and their grandmother has magic, then perhaps 85% of the population consists of spellcasting initiates. For the other extreme, in the Runequest: Modern setting I keep working on, pretty close to 0% of the clergy has any sort of magic, and you could probably invite all the runecasters in the world over to the local Applebees, if you knew who they were.

I'd say in an "average" setting, about one spellcasting clergyperson per 1500 NPCs sounds about right.

 

[TRose]

I think spell caster would be more common then that unless one needed to sell one's soul to the Dark Gods. But most magic user would be rather low powered and devote their magic to every day use. For example most villages would have a wise woman or other type would would know a few spells to help with healing, childbirth , fixing broken objects and helping with every day life. But not know anything about offensive magic.
Role playing games tend to empathise the combat aspect of magic , but if magic did work , then a majority of spell caster would spend their life trying to earn a living by peaceful means and not risking their lives fighting bad guys and would learn spells that would allow them to.

 

[khazwind]

The Orlanthi in Glorantha are all (85%) initiates. And the figure of 2% being even more involved in cults is also an Orlanthi

I'm still struggling to get my head round this. The time requirements for membership would seem to indicate that everybody spends on average 2 hours a day, plus 4 on Godsday attending to cult business. That's a big chunk of time for subsistence farmers.

Plus, I'm wondering what cult that 85% is initiated into. Orlanth Adventurous? Thunderer? Neither seems likely.

I'm leaning towards that 85% being initiated into some sort of "Tribe" spirit cult, getting whatever magical benefits from the Wyter while devoting time to community construction projects (bridges, defenses etc), quilting bees etc. Maybe this cult would be called "Orlanth Homebuilder" or "Orlanth Tribesman" or some such. For example, Barntar would seem to be, essentially, "Orlanth Ploughman."

Actually, I quite like the idea of "Orlanth Tribesman." So 85% are initiated into this cult or some similar daily-work-oriented cult, with the remaining 15% of loonies, nutters and assorted wierdos joining cults like Humakt, Orlanth Adventurous etc.

 

[Cleombrotus]

The Cult of Orlanth contains minor deities of many aspects, Orlanth's Stead. These are deities that can be worshipped discreetly, e.g Barntar the Plowman, but mainly as a part of the Orlanth pantheon, and as an aspect of Orlanth himself. Orlanth is one of a few major deities whose influence dominates and defines an entire culture. The 85% includes all of these subcults (when you read the mythology there is often speculation that the minor deity is simply Orlanth himself in another guise) with, as you say, the other 15% belonging to freakish cults like Humakt (who worships Death?!) and Urox (killing chaos and bathing are not mutually exclusive...). That 85% also includes Orlanth Ernalda, i.e Ernalda as the wife of Orlanth and Earth Mother.

All Orlanthi professions can join the cult of Orlanth. For example, Orlanthi Hunters mostly worship Ormalaya the Hunter, part of the Orlanth cult. More spiritual Hunters can worship Odayla the Hunter (the Deep Hunter) as a discreet cult outside of, but culturally linked to, the Orlanth Cult.

Part of the problem is that the published Orlanth cult is usually Orlanth Adventurous. This is, in reality, a rather selfish and irresponsible aspect of Orlanth - the epitomy of the idea that 'no-one can make you do anything'. Orlanth as free spirit and adventurous hero, emulating the Air Gods of the Storm Age. Although it is this aspect of Orlanth that helped define Orlanth Lightbringer - the God who finally acknowledged his part in creating the ills of the world and taking personal responsibility for making it right again.

The Cult of Orlanth has high levels of initiation because it is through the multifaceted influences of the cult, in the form of its subcults, that the Orlanthi live their lives. They learn to hunt through the Ormalaya aspect, raid through the Finovan aspect, farm through Barntar, etc, etc. Orlanthi teenagers are more or less initiated by default, since they are raised through the cult secrets/myths/rituals, etc.

I always envisaged 'Cult Business' for many of the Orlanth subcults as the business of living. For example, part of the cult business of Ormalaya is hunting for the clan. Cult business for Barntar would be the rituals which ensure the 'plough cuts true' or somesuch. Ritual and life are intermingled for the Orlanthi.

 

[Slytovhand]

I decided to delete my original post, and do this one instead... cos it was a bit crap

I'd think of 2 things..

Firstly - is the hill fort in the middle of the Orlanthi lands, or on some sort of frontier? If it's in the middle of their territory, and in a couple of days of a much larger settlement, then there won't be the need for that many clergy or similar. If it's out on the frontiers, or is some way off from a larger town or village - the numbers go up...they need to be more self-sufficient.

Second point - religion is tied hand in hand with secular life. Everyone believes in the Gods, because they see the miracles performed by their Gods almost every single day. They also have a far higher life expectancy than even we do! (consider if in our hospitals the doctors were Chalana Arroy priests, and the nurses all acolytes. What if all the ambulance officers had a Heal 6 on them??). If you assume (and I think fairly rightly) that the typical household on the community has ma, da and 3 kids - then ma and da will be at initiates. 1st born is expected to take over the house and land later. 2nd born may get married off or something similar. Given the above points on how religion affects life, the 3rd born will be expected to join the local temple. The reason being, getting that those Bless Crops, and Heal Body is a lot easier from family (and cheaper too). So - there's a good 20% of your community headed to the temple to be at least Acolyte (80 of your 400) - they only need to spend 50% of their time there (the rest on the land helping out). And maybe 20% of those might make it to priesthood by the time they're 25 - so there's about 16.

Lastly - combining the 2 points - I'd say that during Spring many would avail themselves of a Bless <insert appropriate farming technique> (you'd be silly not to). And also consider... what else are they going to do with a POW stat??? And maybe at any other given time, have some other spells on hand as needed. They aren't as interested in tossing around spells like there's no tomorrow like the average adventurer - so closing or deepening the connection with their chosen God makes a lot of sense - and that's what the mortal side of the worshipping is about through Divine magic.

Is that more than 2 cents??

 

[StephenT]

If you assume (and I think fairly rightly) that the typical household on the community has ma, da and 3 kids - then ma and da will be at initiates. 1st born is expected to take over the house and land later. 2nd born may get married off or something similar. Given the above points on how religion affects life, the 3rd born will be expected to join the local temple.

I think the Orlanthi are much more tribal and clan oriented, certainly in the remote communities up in the hills. (It might be different in the EWF cities).

So the typical household will have ma, da and 3 kids, and da's brother and his wife and their two kids, and his other brother who hasn't got married yet, and his own mother who lives with them, and his wife's unmarried cousin who was forced to leave her own clan and stay with them, and her (fatherless) son... Get the picture? At least a dozen adults of mixed generations, and numerous kids, all living cosily together in one big longhouse. The land belongs to the clan, not to any individual person, so there's no 'inheritance' as such. If the stead gets too small, then either they'll build an extension on the back, or some of the more adventurous young ones will set out on their own to build a new one down the valley a ways.

They'll all be initiates, but initiates of Orlanth-Durev the Carl or Ernalda-Orane the Steadwife. If you worship a god of farming, then pushing a plow around or herding cows is itself an act of worship (as long as you do it the right way, with appropriate chants and rituals) and counts towards your cult requirement. The rest of that time can be accounted for if one day a week you gather together for a worship service.

As for 'clergy', for the most part that will mean whoever leads the weekly worship - and for the other 6 days a week I'd expect him or her to be a farmer working the fields alongside the rest of the clan.

The people who specialise further than that will be the unusual ones - either more advanced priests or disciples of the 'regular' farming gods, or followers of the weird stuff like Lhankhor Mhy or Humakt. A clan can only support a limited number of such people...

(Someone once worked out how many Humakt cultists there would be in Dragon Pass, based on the published population figures - about 1,500, if I remember rightly - and concluded that every single one of them would have to be a player character...)

 

[Utgardloki]

A couple notes from my Dungeons and Dragons campaign might be of interest here.

There was one day I mentioned to my players that many of the peasants in my "Audor" D&D campaign had weapons with runes carved in them, which may or may not be magical. In D&D, magic is rather rare, but I figure that having a rune-carved weapon that one believed in would be worth a good +1 morale bonus, blurring the distinction between magical and nonmagical weapons. One of the players said it reminded him of Glorantha.

As the campaign progressed, I also started describing runes carved into doorways and door posts. Sometimes the runes were magical, but other times they were 'just' carvings, but could easily have ritual significance for keeping evil spirits out and such.

Today I was thinking of the mythos I invented for the "Kosaka" tribesmen, which revolved around a sun god and a wind goddess. Since the sun god had the domain of Fertility, while the wind goddess was responsible for death and rebirth, it would make sense that during a Kosakan woman's pregnancy, that her mate might do rituals to invoke the Sun God's blessing. Most Kosaka males would not have either divine or arcane magic, but the ritual would help morale and tribal cohesion, and perhaps further blur the distinction between magic and non-magic.

What this means is that rituals would probably be more common than actual magic spells. Even in a setting where everybody and her grandmother has magic spells, there would probably be even more prayers and rituals that do not have magical backing.

 

[richaje]

I'm starting a game, centered on a small Orlanthi hill fort and surrounding steads. There's about 450-500 inhabitants total.

My question is, how many of them will be active members of cults? (ie initiate level and above).

Greg and I have talked about this pretty frequently. An Orlanthi settlement of 450-500 inhabitants probably has something around the following age breakdown: children 150-175, near adults 30-50, adults 200-235, elders 35-50. Half are male and half are female. All the adults and elders would be initated into the Storm Tribe religion; about 85% would be directly initiated to Orlanth and Ernalda, the rest to more minor cults.

A community this small would probably have just a few full-time priests - maybe 3 or 4 (including the clan chief). The other religious positions would be held by god-talkers - holy people chosen by the gods to communicate with them.

Jeff

 

[dougiepunk]

>They also have a far higher life expectancy than even we do! (consider if our hospitals the doctors were Chalana Arroy priests, and the nurses all >acolytes. What if all the ambulance officers had a Heal 6 on them??).

I beleive the view regarding this in Glorantha is that the benefits of healing etc are balanced out by the extreme dangerousness of Glorantha (chaotic disease spirits etc) meaning that life expectancies are similar to those on Earth. I would imagine that the age distribution is different though, with more kids making it to adulthood before dying violently as young men & women. I would also expect there to be more women around than men as they fight less...

Dougie .