How long to apply a hull patch?

[DFW]

Still, if I had the choice between a craft that is only IF capable and one
that is also VF capable and has a pilot trained for VF, I would not hesi-
tate to take the latter one.

Sure. And if I had the choice of purchasing or, insuring a ship with a micro-meteor proof bridge, or one housed in a greenhouse, I'd choose the former as sooner or later you'd loose the ship. Nothing wrong with a couple port holes just large enough for a small telescope normally sealed behind movable covers. Another thing altogether to doom the ship and crew
during intra-system travel.

Since the ship finance companies in the Imperium self insure the risk, there is money to be made by financing ships that aren't suicide machines. You could probably lower the financed cost by at least half! LOL

 

[far-trader]

So you're saying my memory and a quick google finding this site are wrong?

I have no idea what you originally were told or heard so I can't say. The site itself is misleading though. I asked my relative and he gave me a url for a write up from an AF guy he knows who was on the ground tracking end. http://www.honeysucklecreek.net/msfn_missions/MSFN/tom_sheehan.html

As you can see, ground did it...

Not to belabor the point, but no I can't see it. I only did a quick skim though so maybe I missed the relevant bit. Can you point it out please? From what I did see there the point isn't mentioned at all on that page. So you'll need to do better to convince me the site I linked is misleading or wrong.

 

[rust]

A first hand description of the use of the sextant in a crucial situation
during the flight of Apollo 13 from NASA's archives:
http://history.nasa.gov/SP-350/ch-13-4.html

Surprisingly in this case the sextant has been used to "shoot" the sun
because the debris from the explosion made it impossible to properly
identify any star.

 

[DFW]

A first hand description of the use of the sextant in a crucial situation
during the flight of Apollo 13 from NASA's archives:
http://history.nasa.gov/SP-350/ch-13-4.html

Surprisingly in this case the sextant has been used to "shoot" the sun
because the debris from the explosion made it impossible to properly
identify any star.

Interesting how the debris stayed with the ship. Often forget that part of it.

 

[DFW]

Not to belabor the point, but no I can't see it. I only did a quick skim though

You'll have to read the whole thing and possibly look up a couple of definitions.

 

[far-trader]

Not to belabor the point, but no I can't see it. I only did a quick skim though...

You'll have to read the whole thing and possibly look up a couple of definitions.

Or how 'bout I just save myself the time, presume from your answer that you didn't read the whole thing or even bother to skim and search it like I did, so you don't know where or even IF it does have a relevant point. I'm quite comfortable with my sources compared to yours so far.

And simply logically, if the whole sextant thing was so pointless, useless and unneeded why would NASA spend the time training the astronauts, and waste the mass on the instruments?

 

[far-trader]

Anyway, back to the side topic (the new topic?) of "Windows, in, Spaaaace!"

Seems to me the example of a 6G merchant going from the inner system to a distant gas giant is seriously flawed in a few ways.

It won't pay for merchants to make that kind of run, time is money and they save more getting the fuel from the port or dipping a lake.

Merchants won't have 6G drives, they cost too much and are of little or no economic benefit. Which of course means it will take even longer, and result in a lower speed I think, on any such pointless long trip to a gas giant.

And of course you missed the obvious. Any normal space trip by a starship taking longer than a week is going to be done by jumping. The longest trip is going to be to or from 100d.

Finally, you're looking at the equation backwards imo. What you should do is figure the normal flight requirements of the merchant. 1G for most, 2G for some, for a 100d trip. Then use that damage potential from micro-meteoroids as telling you the basic armor already included in a standard hull. If you don't think that much armor is realistic then you have to handwave a field effect for the hull that diverts such hazards. Which is really the simpler and can be applied to any ship. It's how I've always done it. A ship built with a 1G drive has a field effect (as long as the drive is functional and on) that is resistant against any impacts with micro-meteoroids. And yes, I figure shutters are pretty much standard as well, even on the Far-Trader greenhouse bridge.

Now military ships are a different beast entirely. They do often have 6G available, and will use it, and may even routinely make long range full thrust runs. But they also tend to not have big windows (there are exceptions), and tend to be heavily armored beyond the standard hull requirement (presumably including the big windows in those exceptions). So I wouldn't worry about that either.

I think it's all a wash really

 

[lastbesthope]

IF, after a few thousand years, so much is going wrong with sensors, ship loss rate would be VERY high. Even today at our low TL, aircraft can land without looking out the window. BTW - how do you think airliners fly at night?

And I can drive blindfolded, but it'll be a bumpy ride :lol:

They still look at the runway lights when landing at night. Yes Cat III c ILS systems are certified for 0 visibility 0 decision height, trouble is no runway or aircraft is certified to that level last time I checked.

LBH

 

[justacaveman]

None of the ships in the Core Rulebook have hulls stronger than Crystal Iron. There is no reason that the windows in the ship have to be any weaker than the rest of the hull.

I would say that the primary reason for having windows is psychological, not practical. If the windows in a ship can be made just a strong as the rest of the ship, there is no reason not to have them. There are still windows in the Space Shuttle even though it is flown using instruments, not visually.

 

[far-trader]

...There are still windows in the Space Shuttle...

And a sextant (at least once) iirc

 

[TC]

If you needed hard copy charts for the entire Imperium for old fashion visual navigation, they'd take a considerable volume of space. I don't see it being a relavent and trained skill in the OTU, aleast on the baseline tech of TL 12. IF your fault tolerant, multiply redunt sensors have completely failed, I posit that navigation is probably the least of your worries.

I am definatly of the school of well wrung out, fault tolerant, fail to baseline technology. If 4 thousand years of Intersteller space flight is as failure prone and poorly designed as alotta Trav people think, I'd never leave my planet of birth, that things a death trap.

It would take a first class disaster to utterly destroy both the sensors and or the displays needed to use them. At that point, being able to pilot the craft is rather unlikely to say the least. Even if you have windows. I'll never buy being able to set up a re-entry path, unless you do the 1 mile an hour hover to the ground method, you still are in a heap of trouble, because you'd have zero input to the avionics.

It'd be a get close and all hands to the escape pods thing. No escape pods? Sucks to be you. I'd never inflict that level of certain to kill the PC's failure in a game. A challenge okay, a no concievable way outa this one, nope. I'd just say I was tired of the game, who else wants to run something in this time slot.

 

[justacaveman]

I'm rather doubtful about the utility of a sextant in the Imperium. However, I can conceive of an emergency navigation device with a starchart database. I don't think you'd point it out a window, more likely you'd take it out on the hull and set it to scan for matching data. This might take awhile though.

 

[rust]

However, I can conceive of an emergency navigation device with a starchart database.

It could prove useful after a misjump, provided the nav computer is down
(or has problems that caused the misjump in the first place).

 

[far-trader]

If you needed hard copy charts for the entire Imperium for old fashion visual navigation, they'd take a considerable volume of space.

They would indeed. But you won't need the whole of charted space. Just the area you're operating in. FWIW the CT Library program the way I handled it didn't have the whole of charted space either, just a subsector, quadrant (4 subsectors), or sector*. But you could buy multiples.

* and later, when Domains were introduced, it went subsector, sector, domain

Anyway...

I don't see it being a relevant and trained skill in the OTU, at least on the baseline tech of TL 12. IF your fault tolerant, multiply redundant sensors have completely failed, I posit that navigation is probably the least of your worries.

IF all you're worried about is under warranty manufacture defect type faults sure. But how about lack of proper maintenance, sabotage, combat damage (after slapping a hull patch on the hole that killed your electronics), or anything else that renders your electronics ill equipped to fly the ship?

It'd be a get close and all hands to the escape pods thing.

Sure, but how are you supposed to even get close, or have clue one which way to go to get near the habitable planet or moon in the system? Hard charts, an old fashioned telescope, and a sextant. And the skill to use them.

I'm not entirely convinced a decent pilot wouldn't be able to land a ship without the fancy electronics either. With a proper knowledge of his position and velocity as calculated by the navigator with the star charts and sextant he should be able to make a decent orbital insertion and from there have a fair chance at a deorbit burn. Once in the atmo it's simple seat of the pants flying if you have a window to see out of. It might not be the prettiest landing but it'll be a crash you can walk away from at the worst. If you have no window then you have no chance.

I'd never inflict that level of certain to kill the PC's failure in a game...

Well, we agree on this, though our approaches are different. Mine is that failure of technology happens, but proper planning and a low tech backup can win the day. It's a long held sci-fi trope. Yours seems less challenging in that tech never fails. And that stretches my belief suspenders way out there

 

[far-trader]

I'm rather doubtful about the utility of a sextant in the Imperium. However, I can conceive of an emergency navigation device with a starchart database. I don't think you'd point it out a window, more likely you'd take it out on the hull and set it to scan for matching data. This might take awhile though.

Sort of an (ENA) emergency navigation array? Yeah, that's an idea

Like a GPS to my compass & map comparative to your ENA and my sextant & star charts...



ENA: "Turn to heading 200:138:342 and make full thrust in 1 AU."

Pilot: OK

Nav: But that will put us right into that star!

Pilot: Quiet, I'm trying to fly! The ENA is always right. I'm executing!

Nav: Well then what's that big hot red ball of gas RIGHT IN FRONT OF US NOW!!

Pilot: Oops...

(We've all heard the stories of drivers blindly following their GPS directions the wrong way down clearly marked One-Way streets, through construction barriers and past warning signs onto bridges that are out, or off into a lake, etc... )

 

[rust]

(We've all heard the stories of drivers blindly following their GPS directions the wrong way down clearly marked One-Way streets, through construction barriers and past warning signs onto bridges that are out, or off into a lake, etc... )

Not to mention the CFIT accidents where pilots flew their aircraft into
mountains in clear weather because they trusted their instruments in-
stead of looking out the window ...

 

[MarkB]

I'm rather doubtful about the utility of a sextant in the Imperium.

Indeed. Clearly, the necessary tool for manual astronavigation in Traveller space would be a hextant.

 

[rust]

Indeed. Clearly, the necessary tool for manual astronavigation in Traveller space would be a hextant.

Yep, in the simplified version for a flat space.

 

[far-trader]

I'm rather doubtful about the utility of a sextant in the Imperium.

Indeed. Clearly, the necessary tool for manual astronavigation in Traveller space would be a hextant.

Love that :lol:

My laugh for the day, and probably going to find it's way into a game if I get one going.

 

[FreeTrav]

Anyway, back to the side topic (the new topic?) of "Windows, in, Spaaaace!"

Actually, if you want an excuse for the windows, maybe you can adopt the rationale in The Color of Jumpspace...