How does patrol level points allocation work?

[Captain Kremmen]

Hi all,

Having a conversation with a friend about patrol level ships and we don't fully understand them..

PATROL level game 1 patrol ship = 1 point (easy)
SKIRMISH level game 2 patrol ships = 1 point (easy)
RAID level game 3 patrol ships = 1 point (I guess you do not have an option to have less than 3 patrol ships, anything less than 3 would be a waste, so Centauri for example must field 3 Corvans or none at all?
BATTLE level game - don't really understand how you field Corvans or other patrol level ships
WAR level game, there is a special table on page 26 of SFoS that gives you options though Patrol level are very cost ineffective at this level...

Any opinions or comments as to how it currently works?

Ta

Kremmen

 

[Burger]

Same level as scenario: 1 ship per FAP
One level lower: 2 ships per FAP
2 levels lower: 3 ships per FAP
3 levels lower: 4 ships per FAP
4 levels lower: 6 ships per FAP

So, a Battle point would get you 4 patrol ships, and 1 War point would get you 6.
This is being changed in Armageddon to 1/2/3/6/12.

 

[CZuschlag]

Kinda sad to hear about the different breakdown rates. Cheap patrol scouts, like Corvans, will rule the board, and for a price that rivals that of a White Castle slider.

Not what I crave.

Also, the idea of fielding 24 Disruption torpedoes on 6 Omelos for 1 War point seems ... ludicrous. You mihgt never see War level ships again. Who says the Dilgar are a short-range race? Other ships that'll be abused at the 6:1 ratio probably include Rail Hyperion, Darkener(!!), Ka'T**(!!!!), Thentus, Ochliavitas, and potentially Warbirds and Maximus. And just you wait for the Hermes swarm, or the Horde of Saggitarius if they become Skirmish level.

Why such the change? A change to the core breakdown mechanic suggests a need to rebalance every War ship in the game. If they thought it was this bad, why not 1:2:3:5:8 to ease it in? Bizarre.

And if this is how bad we're at right now .... inclusion of the Armageddon priority level will be distorted beyond all proportion.

 

[Ripple]

I have to agree with the concerns here. I so far see nothing that is dealing with the huge swarms of long range, low priority ships this new breakdown with cause. They will likely all be counters (or scraps of paper with 'hermes 26' written on them). I do not see how they can expect any ship do deal with the masses of Xixx, Hermes, that little Narn guy with the one precise torp. The only answer I have heard from anyone so far is that the little things will take up so much room explosions will become an issue.

Maybe I am the only one but a big advantage this game had was that you could play a reasonably high priority battle in a reasonable time. Now if you play at the high end there will be so many ships I may as well break out my star fleet battles, the turns will go faster. It is just too point effecient to buy the low end.

And odd as it is to say it is actually discouraging figure sale to a degree. Myself and a couple of folks I have talked with have simply decided not to buy figures for the smaller ships and use counters as we do not want that many smaller ships. Too expensive and just tedious to paint the same ship over and over.

Ripple

 

[Captain Kremmen]

Thanks guys appreciate the figures.

As usual the current position seems a little harsh and the armageddon position seems a little too good....

I quite like the idea of compromising between the two for friendlies, say 1/2/3/5/9

Cpt Kremmen

 

[Triggy]

I like the new breakdowns - they're still only 75% of the number of ships you'd get if you played a lowe priority game with more FAPs but become a viable option to take and what I'd like to see above anything else is variety.

 

[katadder]

smaller ships my be great in theory but against some of the armageddon ships or even they ancients they wont hav a chance due to lack of AD etc. or just take drakh with their GEGs (and the adira has GEG3 too ) and watch all those small ships small ADs bounce off you.

 

[Burger]

smaller ships my be great in theory but against some of the armageddon ships or even they ancients they wont hav a chance due to lack of AD etc. or just take drakh with their GEGs (and the adira has GEG3 too ) and watch all those small ships small ADs bounce off you.

You're joking right? The Neroon has 50 crew, thats LESS than a Sharlin. And look what happened to one of those:
http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=19997

 

[katadder]

i did say some of the armageddon ships not all. the neroon has all those fighters and all round firepower though to try take down multiple ships.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

Some of the patrol level ships could be killed outright, from their starting hits, by a war level ship's secondary weapons. That is, after all, what secondary weapons are for in reality. Even a couple of hits from, say, the matter cannons on the Octurion could cripple a Tethys or Sho'Kos, and the small ship has to get pretty close to the battleship to fire at all.

 

[CZuschlag]

It's the scouts that are the most brutal! C'mon the Corvan, Vaarl, and Drakh Scout are way(!) too cheap at these rates in a War fight, where they have a 1/3-1/2 chance of almost double firepower of War level ships! At 12:1 with stealth? Get real! What a joke.

 

[Ripple]

I thought I specified the long range small ships as being the issue. My bad.

Think of these (which will never willingly be in secondary weapon range)

Hermes 30 inch gun
Tethys laser or missle 15 inch and 20 inch respectively
Corvan 24 inch range reroll generator (As god is my witness, I shall never have no reroll again!)
Sho'Kov 20 inch range (and precise!)
Vaarl 24 inch reroller

In skirmish we have

Vaarka 24 inch reroller
Xixx 30 inch range
Darkhawk 30 inch range
Brikorta 20 inch range (and fighters, which may be a necessity now)
Sho'Kar 24 inch range reroller (and plenty able to fight anything sent get it)
G'Karith 20 inch range
Darkner 20 inch range

Lots of options to stand in the second line in huge numbers and these ignore the expansion book races. All of these make devestating holdbacks given the numbers they can appear in. Much like the 10 sag fleet, which was just too hard to kill fast enough given the range available we may seen some super hermes fleets at high levels.

Ripple

 

[CZuschlag]

As someone trying to specialize in the expansion booklet races, may I add to list 1:

-- Drakh Scout: 24 inch reroller

And to list 2:

-- Dilgar Omelos: 20 inch range, can be pentaconed in groups of 6!


We could add the following, but I still do't consider them ranged threats:
List 1

-- Dilgar Jashakar: 24 inch reroller, but very killable.

List 2

-- Dilgar Ochliavita: 20 inch range, but at skirmish level, it's only 1 die.

 

[Captain Kremmen]

I thought I specified the long range small ships as being the issue. My bad.

Think of these (which will never willingly be in secondary weapon range)

Hermes 30 inch gun
Tethys laser or missle 15 inch and 20 inch respectively
Corvan 24 inch range reroll generator (As god is my witness, I shall never have no reroll again!)
Sho'Kov 20 inch range (and precise!)
Vaarl 24 inch reroller

In skirmish we have

Vaarka 24 inch reroller
Xixx 30 inch range
Darkhawk 30 inch range
Brikorta 20 inch range (and fighters, which may be a necessity now)
Sho'Kar 24 inch range reroller (and plenty able to fight anything sent get it)
G'Karith 20 inch range
Darkner 20 inch range

Lots of options to stand in the second line in huge numbers and these ignore the expansion book races. All of these make devestating holdbacks given the numbers they can appear in. Much like the 10 sag fleet, which was just too hard to kill fast enough given the range available we may seen some super hermes fleets at high levels.

Ripple

Sorry Ripple but when you say for example DarkHawk 30 inch range what do you mean? I understand the reference to 24 inch reroller, but not the other references?

Cpt K

 

[Ripple]

I just mean they can effectively hurt other ships from that range. In the Darkhawk case it has four dice of forward arc missles. In numbers this is a significant threat. If fact its the number of missles most often sighted as a good number for a skirmish level balanced sagitarius. However, the new pl system will allow more of them to be taken. Doesn't this mean, logically, that the balance has been lost between war hulls and patrol/skirmish hulls if you can now take more of them but there has been no change in stats?

Ripple

 

[CZuschlag]

Precisely! That's what I've been trying to get at all along here....

 

[Captain Kremmen]

I think this is a complicated question.

If you played a patrol or skirmish or I think Raid level game then there has been no change whatsoever in the cost of patrol or skirmish level ships.

I have never played them, but looking at the current ratios it looks as though it would be pointless (pun intended!) to take patrol and skirmish level ships at say a war level game. Only reason you may do it is because of very specialist ships i.e. scouts.

I think it would be nice to see variety of ship sizes in a battle but it would be silly to play a war level game with only patrol level ships...

I still personally like my simple house rule that at least 40% of your points level (normally 2 points) must be used to purchase ships either at the level of the game or the next level up.

So in a 5 point battle level game you must have a minimum of 2 battle level ships or a war level ship, then free to buy escorts etc for them from any level you like. I don't think that is either complicated or terribly unrealistic.

Cpt Kremmen

 

[Silvereye]

I have never played them, but looking at the current ratios it looks as though it would be pointless (pun intended!) to take patrol and skirmish level ships at say a war level game. Only reason you may do it is because of very specialist ships i.e. scouts.

It is not pointless, they make good escorts and initiative sinks. When I take them I often form them into squadrons, as this greatly increses the overall firepower available. 2 or 3 Ka'Tocs can still deal out a lot of damage to a Battle or War ship for instance, and Vorchan packs are equally deadly.

 

[CZuschlag]

Pentacons of 6 Omelos can be bad, bad news, too. 24 CAFed Disruption Torpedoes against Hull 6 gets 14 hits for 28:26 and two double damage criticals. Against Hull 5 it's 18 hits for 33:30 and 3 DD Crits. That's likely the end of any Hyperion, Sulust, Sag, Nova (maybe..), Halik, Xill, or SFoS Vorlon DD or CL. Ochliavitas, not so much. For White Stars, it depends entirely on Dodge.

That's relevant enough for me.