How does it compare to RQ-2 / RQ-3

[Adept]

I'd love to hear what impressions the new RQ, and especially the new Glorantha material is making on you fellow Glorantha gamers out there.

I have a rather mixed up feeling.

The RQ-3 (and especially RQ-2) material gave a very different feel. It was awkwardly written and technical, but it did give the impression that Chaosium really knew what they were talking about. Occasionally there was obvious problems and contradictions (like the runic associations of the metals never getting worked out 100%), but for the most part, the writing was clear and definite.

The new material by Robin Laws (and the occasionally rather horrible illustrations) gives a very different feel. There is a lot of cool ideas out there, but the feeling is that facts aren't really checked very thoroughly, and that the details are very vague. This is propably because of Robin Laws' approach to RPG, and the fact that he values style over detail.

I'm not sure what I think of the new stuff. In the old RQ, it was easily clear what the Dragonewts looked like (excellent illustration in the RQ-3 era), and how the troll's dark sense operated. In the new era, such details don't seem to be concidered important.

 

[WildHealer]

I assume we're speaking principally of background here, rather than rulesy stuff.

Unfortunately I have to agree with you Adept. I'm getting the feeling that the material is being handled as "just another bunch of generic fantasy stuff", rather than as a coherent and thoroughly-documented fantasy world existing separately from any single set of game rules. If anything, Glorantha has to be compared to Middle Earth and Tekumel rather than to rpg-specific campaign settings such as Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk. Glorantha preceded the invention of RPGs, and stands separate to them - although obviously it owes its continued existence to the fans who continue to play RPG and tabletop games there!

In order to give a fictional world credibility you have to pretend it's real, to a certain extent. When someone adds to the "canon" of official writings, it becomes necessary for subsequent writers to take that addition into account. If you don't do so, you end up "breaking" that illusion of reality - and a lot of us who are interested in Glorantha as a coherent literary creation as well as a darned good place to Bash Chaos In will just pack up and go elsewhere.

At the moment, I get the feeling that Mongoose are playing fast and loose with the Glorantha canon. Silly things like Troll snouts, much more profound things like the (non)existence of everyday magic, run the risk of doing significant damage to what makes Glorantha special. I don't know whether this is accidental, whether Mongoose writers aren't sufficiently familiar with the Glorantha canon (there IS a helluva lot to read!), or whether they just consider this just one more generic fantasy world to play fast and loose in, but after the "house rule heavy" MRQ rules, I had really hoped to see a bit more attention to detail - ie the canon - than we seem to be seeing at the moment. The simple fact is, you can't just change bits of Glorantha just because you feel like it, any more than you can stuff around with Middle Earth.

Getting Mongoose to take opinions like this seriously, however, is an entirely different matter - mostly we just get accused of moaning and being negative...

 

[Kagan Altar]

I actually took the time yesterday to pick up my old copy of Genertela, the French speaking sourcebook for the old RQ, and compared the background entry there with the one presented in Glorantha: The Second Age.

At the time, Genertela, with Les Dieux de Glorantha (Cults of Glorantha) were thought to be "the" achievement in terms of fantasy backgrounds.

I was surprised to realize that GTS has a page count superior (of a few pages only mind you) to Genertela. The historical background goes a tad less into the details of how Arkat confronts Gbadji and such, but you've got what you need.

I too feel like more well, respect for lack of a better word, could be given to the material, but I strongly suspect this is the reaction of a fan who has romanticized the Gloranthan background rather than an objective outlook on the new material provided to us.

I grew up. We all grew up. As I grew up, my tastes, experiences and subsequent expectations grew along while I kept this idea that somehow, the Gloranthan material of old was a sort of panacea of fantasy worlds. I think there was a lot of retroactive "it's all great and new" effect to this. An effect that, even if I didn't want it to, somehow wore off a bit during the last few years, without me being truly aware of it. This is with these old eyes and new expectations that I look at the Second Age material, and that's why, I think, I find more things to criticize.

If there's a valid question to bring up, it's whether the Gloranthan material grew up and matured like we all did during the last twenty years. Did it, really? The question is open, and I wait for the sourcebook authors to prove it to me.

 

[WildHealer]

If there's a valid question to bring up, it's whether the Gloranthan material grew up and matured like we all did during the last twenty years. Did it, really?

That's a great question.

You could look at it like this: Tolkien had Middle Earth, where he played with his ideas for creating a mythology for an "Anglo-Saxon England", an England where the Norman Conquest hadn't happened. He built his creation around his love of languages. You can take part in both these elements (if you want to) in his books and in RPGs based on them.

M.A.R. Barker has created Tekumel out of his love of languages, Amero-Indo-Chinese cultures, his feel for the flow of history. These come across strongly when you play EPT (etc).

Greg Stafford has created Glorantha out of his love of mythology. He's used it to play around with concepts from Joseph Campbell, shamanism, and cultural anthropology, to name just a few. As his interests have changed, Glorantha has developed with them. If you want to, you can explore these themes when you read about and play in Glorantha (or you can just bash broos. Both are good.).

I think with the game engine developments of the HeroQuest game (which aren't everyone's cup of tea), and the depth of the supplements which have been produced over the past thirty years (and recently with the HeroQuest line and fan-created support products), it is possible to say that Gloranthan gaming has grown up with us as we've grown up. Whether it's gone in the direction we wanted is an entirely different question.

So, Mongoose has given itself a job to do when it announced to the world it was publishing stuff for Glorantha. It's a helluva club to try and join. The Ralios PDF was a very promising first start; things like stuffing up Gloranthan magic (so far at least) have on the other hand been disastrous IMHO. Only time's going to tell whether Mongoose will actually stand up to the rest of Gloranthan publications, or whether it'll be found wanting...

Having said that, I still wheel out "Legendary Duck Tower" for a night or two's great gaming once every few years ago, so there's always hope... Time heals many wounds...

 

[Trifletraxor]

I was surprised to realize that GTS has a page count superior (of a few pages only mind you) to Genertela. The historical background goes a tad less into the details of how Arkat confronts Gbadji and such, but you've got what you need.

Old RQ material had many more words per page though. MRQ writing takes a lot of space.

SGL.

 

[Kagan Altar]

Old RQ material had many more words per page though. MRQ writing takes a lot of space.

That's correct. A good point indeed.

Nevertheless, I somehow imagined that the amount of information included in Genertela was much greater than the information included in Glorantha: The Second Age. That's true and not true. True in the amount of details: Genertela is more of a Gazetteer than GSA. From what I can gather so far from my readings, GSA provides more general information about factions and people, and less of a town by town description of the world. Not true because the information in the later being more generalistic, it could be argued that this information will generally be more useful than just a town by town description of the lands.

 

[homerjsinnott]

I agree with the first two writers about the generic worry. A good example of this is the 'Why come here' section. Every other write up seems to be a variation on "we pay you to kill things" This feels a bit like padding. Why not have a big notice at the begining of the gazetteer with this on it? It seems very generic fantasy. A bit 'find monsters, kill them, get treasure, get XP'.

I also agree with Kagan Altar about the word count ,while the page count is bigger, the actual word count is lower (I could tell this without even looking at GCotHW, but did check). Genertela had full page illos as well. Also I feel that while Genertela didn't have as much general info up front, if you dug only a little deeper the info was in there.

I do like some of the features of 2nd age, the cultures bit, the City and well thats about it. If anyone could prompt me on other good features I would be glad.

However I disagree about the two styles. I find the older stuff colourful and imaginative and can bare a 4th or 5th reading. And while the new stuff is exciting and bright, it feels lightweight and once you have read it there is no need (or want) to read it again. It feels a bit fashionable.

 

[MongooseMatt]

much more profound things like the (non)existence of everyday magic, run the risk of doing significant damage to what makes Glorantha special.

Wait until the Player's Guide to Glorantha before making any judgements - there is too much in Glorantha to fit in a mere 160 page book. Instead, we are treating this as an epic setting, handling each area accordingly before moving on. The Glorantha-Second Age book gives you the overview. Now we will start to move into the detail . . .

 

[Trifletraxor]

much more profound things like the (non)existence of everyday magic, run the risk of doing significant damage to what makes Glorantha special.

Wait until the Player's Guide to Glorantha before making any judgements - there is too much in Glorantha to fit in a mere 160 page book. Instead, we are treating this as an epic setting, handling each area accordingly before moving on. The Glorantha-Second Age book gives you the overview. Now we will start to move into the detail . . .

Don't you know we want it all at once? Detailed without a single typo?

SGL.

 

[MongooseMatt]

Don't you know we want it all at once? Detailed without a single typo?

Heh

Seriously, we barely considered trying to make Glorantha a one-shot, do-everything campaign book - it was fairly plain it just wasn't going to fit.

Instead, we are treating it as a journey, one that will take many years and many volumes. However, at the end (if it ever really ends!), you will end up with the most detailed and comprehensive look at Glorantha yet done. You may not agree with everything published but, I hope you will end up agreeing, the sum will be far greater than all the parts. We have talked to Greg at some length about these matters, and it is our intention to give the setting the best we possibly can.

So, come on this journey with us - all we have done thus far is open the door a tiny crack. There is a whole world beyond. . .

 

[Trifletraxor]

Good to hear! I'll certainly come along. But could you PLEASE go back to the old uz (with muzzle)? We hate the pig-snouts! And, high on the wish-list: big, nice, detailed, expensive quality maps of Genertela! And regional settings with scenarios!!!

SGL.

 

[WildHealer]

So, come on this journey with us - all we have done thus far is open the door a tiny crack. There is a whole world beyond. . .

Erm... sorry Matt, with all due respect, that's starting to sound a bit old. Just how many volumes do you expect us to buy before we get something we can play in Glorantha with? I mean - basic everyday magic in a special extra supplement?

 

[GbajiTheDeceiver]

Reading over the old stuff, some of it comes across as a very very well written, interesting and informative, history book. The old "Cause of Time" essay is a brilliant example; this is the kind of stuff you would read for pure enjoyment. The new stuff comes across (to me, anyway) as being purely focussed on being an RPG setting. Maybe it lost some of the magic as part of that change?

 

[Trifletraxor]

Argh! It's nearly impossible to get answers from Matt, he always do these hit and run posts! :x

Pig-snout's out! :x (+ we want maps and regional setting, got it?)

SGL.

 

[MongooseMatt]

(+ we want maps and regional setting, got it?)

Give us a little time - we are looking into it. . .

 

[simonh]

Reading over the old stuff, some of it comes across as a very very well written, interesting and informative, history book. The old "Cause of Time" essay is a brilliant example; this is the kind of stuff you would read for pure enjoyment. The new stuff comes across (to me, anyway) as being purely focussed on being an RPG setting. Maybe it lost some of the magic as part of that change?

There's a lot of truth in that, but Mongoose realy have done a great job of promoting the setting as a setting for adventures. Every section of the GTSA book or Ralios supplement is bursting with stuff for characters to actualy do, conflicts for them to get involved in, characters to befriend or make enemies of. It does feel a little less 'real' in some ways, but it also feels so much more alive.

I'm realy enjoying it.

 

[JonGeere]

Overall I am happy how Mongoose has gone about putting across Glorantha. Yes I would like the rules to be intimately tied in with Glorantha and the writing taking into account what I have read and would like to read. But in the real world having to try and meet the expectation of old and potential players their approach is reasonable.

Having said that I vote for self-contained campaigns (e.g. Griffin Mountain) where all you need is the core rules and the supplement. More words per page would not come amiss either.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Wait until the Player's Guide to Glorantha before making any judgements - there is too much in Glorantha to fit in a mere 160 page book.

Maybe you should go for the "World's largest Dungeon"/"Ptolus" style mammoth production rather than so many slim volumes?

(The ideal, as always is somewhere in between)


I like the background, by and large. I'm less convinced by the rules so far...

 

[Trifletraxor]

(+ we want maps and regional setting, got it?)

Give us a little time - we are looking into it. . .

Good!

But what about the pig-snouts?? That's even more important!

SGL.

 

[Voriof]

Some regional books would be lovely. There's some areas of Glorantha that have never been discussed in any sort of detail, many of which are places crucial to the God Learners.

I could stand to see some Eastern Isles or Fronelan action as well. Kralorela. The list goes on and on.

Voriof - who should probably get off the throne and write a proposal...