House Combat Options by Netherek

[Netherek]

Combat Maneuvers:

Cause Overreach:
Requirements: Dodge, Mobility, and Tumble 5 ranks.
Circumstance: You have provoked an Attack of Opportunity while moving out of a threatened square, must be dodging.
Effect: Take a -2 to Dodge defense, if the foe missed with the AoO, you may make a free trip attack that the foe cannot trip you in return. If the the attacker has a penalty for Power Attacking that penalty applies to the opposed roll. This was inspired by Tactical Feat: Elusive Opponent.

Unhorse:
Requirements: Mounted Combat, Ride 4 ranks.
Circumstance: You have successfully attacked a mounted opponent with a mounted charge.
Effect: If you successfully charged an opponent the opponent must make a Ride check DC 5 + (damage dealt prior to DR) to remain in saddle instead of Ride DC5.

 

[sbarrie]

[Unhorse:
Requirements: Mounted Combat, Ride 4 ranks.
Circumstance: You have successfully attacked a mounted opponent with a mounted charge.
Effect: If you successfully charged an opponent the opponent must make a Ride check DC 5 + (damage dealt prior to DR) to remain in saddle instead of Ride DC5.

From Dec 15, 2004,

Clash
Your mounted charges carry enough force to dismount opposing knights and send infantry reeling.
Prerequisite: Ride by Attack, Base Attack Bonus +6 or higher, Ride 9 ranks
Circumstance: You're charging while mounted
Effect: If you're charging with a lance, and you've successfully hit your opponent, you may make an opposed Trip roll as a free action. If successful, your opponent falls and your lance takes damage equal to one quarter (¼) of the damage you dealt. If the trip attempt fails, your lance takes damage equal to one half (½) of the damage you dealt. Do not include any damage from a Sneak Attack when damaging the lance.
If you are attacking with a weapon other than a lance, you may make an opposed Trip roll as a free action with a -4 circumstance penalty (war swords and sabers only incur a -2 penalty). If successful, your opponent falls. If unsuccessful, you must make a DC12 Fortitude check or drop your weapon.
In all cases, use the size of the rider to modify the Trip attempt, not the size of the mount.

I like yours better - the focus on the Ride skill is good, and while I like the breaking lances, the method I used was clunky.

On the other hand, my version knocks down infantry too. Hmmm...

 

[Daz]

I'm not sure if I like Cause Overreach because there's absolutely no downside to using it, people will use it every single time that they meet the conditions. Maybe give a small penalty to DV for defending against the AoO that triggers it?

 

[Netherek]

Well, Overreach must use dodge, and I suppose a -2 to dodge might work.

 

[Lord Jolly the Scribe]

Nice, especially Unhorse. I have a Hyrkanian running around on a horse right now and he has asked about some extra oomph for his character. Good maneuovre.

 

[Netherek]

Here are some Grappling Actions I have adapted from WotC "Rules of the Game - All About Grappling"

Take Down:
Requirements: Undecided
Circumstance: Must be grappling.
Effect: Functions like Trip, though you don't make a touch attack (already touching). The opposed roll is made with grapple checks, if you win you and the foe become prone in the same square. As an option, take -4 to the roll to throw foe down into an adjacent square. No AoO are provoked from the movements of this maneuver. Either version will inflict unarmed damage as though you struck him.

Break Another's Hold:
Requirements: Undecided
Circumstance: Must be grappling an opponent who has a hold on another character.
Effect: Functions like Break Another's Pin under the Grappling options, except with a success you free the character you are helping.

Slam:
Requirements: Improved Grapple
Circumstance: Must have foe pinned.
Effect: Make an opposed Grapple check to throw foe prone into an adjacent square, this movement will cause your foe to provoke AoO from threatened squares. This cause damage as an unarmed strike, may be used with Power Attack.

Toss Foe:
Requirements: Improved Grapple
Circumstance: Must have foe pinned and be able to lift foe.
Effect: If you succeed in an opposed grapple check, make a Str check DC10 to throw opponent 5ft. + 5ft per 5 pts. over with a max of 25ft + 5ft. per size increment over medium. If the foe is thrown into an obstacle he will take damage as total distance indicated by success, otherwise takes half damage in addition to unarmed damage. This maneuver will provoke an AoO from any who threaten you.

 

[Netherek]

Have done some additional editing to the grapple maneuvers.

Any comments?

 

[Sutek]

I think the following:

Take Down pre-req ought to be a Pin, but then can do that as a Free Action. May not need to Provoke, but I'm not sure yet...

Break Another's Hold seems to work, but the only pre-req I can think of is to establish a Grapple, but the drawback needs to be that regardless what happens, any oponents involved in the Grapple can immediately try to switch and Grapple you. Can't quite figure how to word that exactly, but basically, if you move in and try to break my hold on someone else, I ought to have the option to try and Grapple you as a result, whether you set you buddy free or not.

Slam and Toss Foe seem like they ought to be improvements after Take Down. In other words, you get Take Down, and that allows you to wrestle some chump to the ground, but you have to go Prone with him. Slam allows you to body slam that chump, instead, and he would end up Prone in you same 5-foot square. Toss Foe then allows you to do the same thing, but propel the chump into any adjacent, unoccupied square. Make both Slam and Toss Throw checks: DC set by 10 + Opponent STR bonus for Slam and 15+Opponent STR bonus for Toss. Any bonuses for unarmed combat proficiency apply. Everything Provokes.

I'd add the pre-req of Imporoved Trip to Overreach.

I'd also say that for Unhorse, just make it any time you hit a mounted opponent or his mount, he has to make a Ride check, DC = damage dealt or be knocked off his mount. That's easier. Heck, unless a dude is mounted on a Warhorse, that happens anyway, so make any mounts except warhorses DC = 10+damage.

 

[Netherek]

I think the following:

Take Down pre-req ought to be a Pin, but then can do that as a Free Action. May not need to Provoke, but I'm not sure yet...

Having a pin is one thing that seperates Take Down from Slam, and it's for the most part designed as a tackle...

Break Another's Hold seems to work, but the only pre-req I can think of is to establish a Grapple, but the drawback needs to be that regardless what happens, any oponents involved in the Grapple can immediately try to switch and Grapple you. Can't quite figure how to word that exactly, but basically, if you move in and try to break my hold on someone else, I ought to have the option to try and Grapple you as a result, whether you set you buddy free or not.

It's a virtual replica of Break Anothers Pin so you must be grappling the person who has the hold on the character you are trying to free.

Slam and Toss Foe seem like they ought to be improvements after Take Down. In other words, you get Take Down, and that allows you to wrestle some chump to the ground, but you have to go Prone with him. Slam allows you to body slam that chump, instead, and he would end up Prone in you same 5-foot square. Toss Foe then allows you to do the same thing, but propel the chump into any adjacent, unoccupied square. Make both Slam and Toss Throw checks: DC set by 10 + Opponent STR bonus for Slam and 15+Opponent STR bonus for Toss. Any bonuses for unarmed combat proficiency apply. Everything Provokes.

The set up I have is pretty much the WotC setup, though I did make these tougher to perform. The difference between the two happen to be that slam can represent things like a backbreaker and the like, and there is a bit of difference trying to toss a guy some distance and drilling him head first into the ground.

I'd add the pre-req of Imporoved Trip to Overreach.

Seems a little steep as that would require 4 feats to perform, making it stricter than most maneuvers...

I

'd also say that for Unhorse, just make it any time you hit a mounted opponent or his mount, he has to make a Ride check, DC = damage dealt or be knocked off his mount. That's easier. Heck, unless a dude is mounted on a Warhorse, that happens anyway, so make any mounts except warhorses DC = 10+damage.

Actually, the ride check to remain mounted when taking damage is a flat 5, and in most cases makes sense. The DC 10 on a standard mount is to control the mount as a move action instead of a full action. I just think that it's not worth the added die rolls a round as most of the knockdowns were do to receiving a charge. Even then it isn't a sure deal, so that's why I added Unhorse. Frankly if one has a ride of 5 I wouldn't bother checking for normal blows, but that's me.

Thanks for the points, I may modify Slam or Toss. Take down is just a weaker version of Fling Aside which is why the lower requirements.

 

[Sutek]

I think the following:

Take Down pre-req ought to be a Pin, but then can do that as a Free Action. May not need to Provoke, but I'm not sure yet...

Having a pin is one thing that seperates Take Down from Slam, and it's for the most part designed as a tackle...

The thing is, that in the rules, you only get to make dmaging attacks against someone you have Grappled after you Pin him, other than unarmed strike stuff. By saying that this feat allows a Take Down as a Free Action after a Pin has been established isn't asking for much.

If you want to create a tackle feat, there's no need to involve Grapple at all. A tackle is essentially a modified charge.

[Break Another's Hold is] a virtual replica of Break Anothers Pin so you must be grappling the person who has the hold on the character you are trying to free.

I dont' see anything in the rules covering "breaking another's Pin", and the Pin condition is only a modification of the Grapple condition, which is still going on if someone is Pinned. In other words, if you're Pinned, you're Grappled too.

Actually, remember that once anyone has Grappled someone else, you cannot Dodge or Parry, whether you're the grappled party or the one doing the grappling. It becomes much easier then for others to initiate subsequent Grapples, but thier doing so still provokes an AOO.

What you're trying to create is a step where the third (or more) combatant comes in and disrupts the previous Grapple, so what it seems like should be happening is Ftr3 attempting the break the hold that Ftr2 has on Ftr1 by Ftr3 making a STR test versus Ftr2 under the conditions described under If You Are Pinning an Opponent[/b], pg 175AE.

The set up I have is pretty much the WotC setup, though I did make these tougher to perform. The difference between the two happen to be that slam can represent things like a backbreaker and the like, and there is a bit of difference trying to toss a guy some distance and drilling him head first into the ground.

I'm not sure what WOTC "set up" you're referring to. the Grapple rules as they are now are the same as in D&D3.5. Besides, I was describing a gradual increase of result. Take DOwn would bring you both Prone, Slam drops only the opponent Prone and occupying your same square, and Toss Foe wrestles the foe into an adjacent square 5-feet away.

What are you referring to? Can you give me a book and page number?

I'd add the pre-req of Imporoved Trip to Overreach.

Seems a little steep as that would require 4 feats to perform, making it stricter than most maneuvers...

Nah...I'm sure there are plpenty 4-feat paths. Besides, your feat will allow AOOs to be negated very easily by any 6th level Thief, and that's too powerful. I'd leave it at being able to be counter-tripped, at least.

I'd also say that for Unhorse, just make it any time you hit a mounted opponent or his mount, he has to make a Ride check, DC = damage dealt or be knocked off his mount. That's easier. Heck, unless a dude is mounted on a Warhorse, that happens anyway, so make any mounts except warhorses DC = 10+damage.

Actually, the ride check to remain mounted when taking damage is a flat 5, and in most cases makes sense. The DC 10 on a standard mount is to control the mount as a move action instead of a full action. I just think that it's not worth the added die rolls a round as most of the knockdowns were do to receiving a charge. Even then it isn't a sure deal, so that's why I added Unhorse. Frankly if one has a ride of 5 I wouldn't bother checking for normal blows, but that's me.

Hmm..not sure where that is. Can you give me a page reference?

The main rules state (page 176AE) that a DC20 Ride check each round is needed just to get any non-warhorse to stay calm in a fight. It just changes the type of action necessary to control the mount, but you don't fall off. If the mount is a warhorse, this is a DC10 Ride check. The Guide with Knees DC5 check is better described under the Ride skill, and that check is in addition to the other checks to maintain the mount. So with a non-warhorse, you'd have to strat by making a DC20 check to be sure you can take a Standard Actio that round, and then make a DC5 Ride check to be able to use both hands in the combat by Guiding with your Knees.

The only DC10 check for Ride is to direct your mount to attack during a battle, so the horse can plant a hoof or two into the bad guys.

There's a lot of checks involved with mounted combat, without all the feats that then negate some of it. Check pages 96 and 176 again to be sure you're looking at the right DCs for everything.

 

[Netherek]

I think the following:

Take Down pre-req ought to be a Pin, but then can do that as a Free Action. May not need to Provoke, but I'm not sure yet...

Having a pin is one thing that seperates Take Down from Slam, and it's for the most part designed as a tackle...

The thing is, that in the rules, you only get to make dmaging attacks against someone you have Grappled after you Pin him, other than unarmed strike stuff. By saying that this feat allows a Take Down as a Free Action after a Pin has been established isn't asking for much.

If you want to create a tackle feat, there's no need to involve Grapple at all. A tackle is essentially a modified charge.

Actually you just need a hold to do damage in grapples, and Fling Aside you don't even need that. In order to be grappling you must have a hold, in addition the damage is like Unarmed Strike so Armour reduces as usual. It's not the grapple inflict damage maneuver, that would definately require more...

[Break Another's Hold is] a virtual replica of Break Anothers Pin so you must be grappling the person who has the hold on the character you are trying to free.

I dont' see anything in the rules covering "breaking another's Pin", and the Pin condition is only a modification of the Grapple condition, which is still going on if someone is Pinned. In other words, if you're Pinned, you're Grappled too.

Actually, remember that once anyone has Grappled someone else, you cannot Dodge or Parry, whether you're the grappled party or the one doing the grappling. It becomes much easier then for others to initiate subsequent Grapples, but thier doing so still provokes an AOO.

What you're trying to create is a step where the third (or more) combatant comes in and disrupts the previous Grapple, so what it seems like should be happening is Ftr3 attempting the break the hold that Ftr2 has on Ftr1 by Ftr3 making a STR test versus Ftr2 under the conditions described under If You Are Pinning an Opponent[/b], pg 175AE.

Break Another's Pin is on p.175 right below Pinning an Opponent, but yes it roughly the same, when an opponent has a hold of an ally, and you are grappling him, you may make an opposed check with the opponent. Success would release the ally, but you are still grappling the opponent.

The set up I have is pretty much the WotC setup, though I did make these tougher to perform. The difference between the two happen to be that slam can represent things like a backbreaker and the like, and there is a bit of difference trying to toss a guy some distance and drilling him head first into the ground.

I'm not sure what WOTC "set up" you're referring to. the Grapple rules as they are now are the same as in D&D3.5. Besides, I was describing a gradual increase of result. Take DOwn would bring you both Prone, Slam drops only the opponent Prone and occupying your same square, and Toss Foe wrestles the foe into an adjacent square 5-feet away.

What are you referring to? Can you give me a book and page number?

It's on the website, under the articles Rules of the Game. Articles are All About Grappling, with pt. 2 and 3 having the relavent info.

I'd add the pre-req of Imporoved Trip to Overreach.

Seems a little steep as that would require 4 feats to perform, making it stricter than most maneuvers...

Nah...I'm sure there are plpenty 4-feat paths. Besides, your feat will allow AOOs to be negated very easily by any 6th level Thief, and that's too powerful. I'd leave it at being able to be counter-tripped, at least.

I can see how it could be a little to easy, how about a penalty on the trip attempt, it'd put in line with Sundering Parry...

I'd also say that for Unhorse, just make it any time you hit a mounted opponent or his mount, he has to make a Ride check, DC = damage dealt or be knocked off his mount. That's easier. Heck, unless a dude is mounted on a Warhorse, that happens anyway, so make any mounts except warhorses DC = 10+damage.

Actually, the ride check to remain mounted when taking damage is a flat 5, and in most cases makes sense. The DC 10 on a standard mount is to control the mount as a move action instead of a full action. I just think that it's not worth the added die rolls a round as most of the knockdowns were do to receiving a charge. Even then it isn't a sure deal, so that's why I added Unhorse. Frankly if one has a ride of 5 I wouldn't bother checking for normal blows, but that's me.

Hmm..not sure where that is. Can you give me a page reference?

The main rules state (page 176AE) that a DC20 Ride check each round is needed just to get any non-warhorse to stay calm in a fight. It just changes the type of action necessary to control the mount, but you don't fall off. If the mount is a warhorse, this is a DC10 Ride check. The Guide with Knees DC5 check is better described under the Ride skill, and that check is in addition to the other checks to maintain the mount. So with a non-warhorse, you'd have to strat by making a DC20 check to be sure you can take a Standard Actio that round, and then make a DC5 Ride check to be able to use both hands in the combat by Guiding with your Knees.

The only DC10 check for Ride is to direct your mount to attack during a battle, so the horse can plant a hoof or two into the bad guys.

There's a lot of checks involved with mounted combat, without all the feats that then negate some of it. Check pages 96 and 176 again to be sure you're looking at the right DCs for everything.

You are right, DC20, I looked at the wrong line. I do that occasionally. I don't usually bother with the DC5 stay in saddle when hit, too many rolls for mounted combat. That's why I use Unhorse so that good hard hits can knock one down. Works for joust competitions as well. I suppose one could apply it to Crits as well...

 

[Sutek]

In terms of breaking the Pin and any subsequent Break a Hold feat, it looks as if the Grapple rules are written to start Grapples, get to a Pin and then leave it at that. You can only break holds via the Escape from Grapple rule on the same page, add yourself into the Grapple scrum, or just stab the Grappler you feel ought not be Grappling the person you feel ought not be Grappled. (lol)

This is my biggest problem with the Grapple rules: They aren't wrestling rules. I grab you, and now I've got you, and if you can't get away, I can eventually put my hand over your mouth, but I can never keep you Pinned and slit your throat*. Also, there's no way for me to get you down on the ground or disarm you or anything else interesting, although the Draw a Light Weapon rule may allow me to Grapple you and then remove you own sword from it's scabbard.

* The exception is that if I have Sneak Attack and a light weapon, you are denied Dodge and Parry (as am I) and I can sneak attack you for sever damage, but as most Sneak Attackers aren't going ot have very high STR or Grapple capabilities, it may never even come up.

I still say that breaking a Pin is one thing, but breaking a hold is something else entirely. The opponent that you are trying to get to let go of your pal should definitely get to try and Grapple you as a result. Baddie has Bill in a headlock, so Nethrek elects to break Baddie's hold, but as he does so, Baddie can try to grab Nethrek instead. Sort of like a Trip response.

And regarding mounted combat...what a headache. It's like a near-endless stream of "if/then" situations. The only things slightly more complicated is Grappling. (lol)

I'll take a look at that WotC stuff. Thanks.

 

[Netherek]

In Grappling, you first have to grab, if you do (provided you succeed in a touch and not damaged by an AoO) you must make a free grapple check to get a hold that also in this case inflicts unarmed damage bypassing armour.

If you wish to continue grappling you must move into the opponents square, there after you can continue perform grapple maneuvers as attacks, declining just like standard attacks.

While in this state you may perform maneuvers just like attacks. These maneuvers are:

1. Activate Item
2. Attack Opponent (unarmed strike i.e. punch, light weapon, or N.A. use a standard attack roll, not a grapple check)
3. Cast a Spell
4. Damage Opponent (this is a wrestle maneuver, bypasses armour and uses a grapple check.
5. Draw a light weapon.
6. Escape from Grapple
7. Move
8. Retrieve Spell Component
9. Pin Opponent
10. Break Another's Pin
11. Use Opponents Weapon

If you Pin an opponent...

1. Damage Opponent
2. Use light weapon (yours or opponents as above)
3. Move
4. Disarm Opponent
5. Release Opponent
6. May not Draw Weapon, Escape, Retrieve Spell Component, Pin Another (i.e. can't pin two characters), or break a pin.

I know under the exclusions it states cannot draw/use weapon but it also state you can use a weapon at the begining of Pinning. This is clarified in All About Grapples, that you can indeed use weapon if you have it drawn prior to the pin. The sentence in the exclusions is a copy/paste of the D&D SRD and is apparently a typo in that.

So as you can see, my grapple maneuver do fit in with the existing ones.

 

[Netherek]

Here are my reduced 2hand weapons.

As AE, with these changes:

Bardiche 2d8 AP6
Bill 2d6 AP6
Club, War 2d6 AP4
Pike 2d6 AP2
Pollaxe 2d6 AP8

Greatsword 2d8 AP5
Tulwar 2d6 AP4

Warhammer 1d8 AP6

As Trading Post...

Bec-de-Corbin 2d6 AP7
Nordheimir Double-Handed Axe 2d8 AP6

Flamberge 2d8 AP6
Talwar 2d6 AP4