High Guard is Here!

[AnotherDilbert]

The International Space Station, the space shuttle and the space capsules are in my understanding "non-gravity hulls." Using artificial gravity plates, double hulls, or hamster cages generate a gravity field. A planetoid or buffered planetoid are "non-gravity hulls."

How do I calculate the d-tons and cost of adding grav plates to planetoid or buffered planetoid?

Can planetoid or buffered planetoid hulls use hamster cage or double hulls?

Planetoids are a configuration (hull shape) for hulls. They are not "non-gravity hulls" by default.

Assume planetoids do come with gravity hulls (assumption for all hulls unless you deliberately decide otherwise).

There is no defined cost for a Non-gravity planetoid hull (and the grav plates are remarkably cheap on planetoids).

 

[moriturimax]

Excellent! Thanks for all the great follow up work you guys do, if for no other reason than to ease our minds as we lie in bed at night with sweaty clammy hands, thinking of all the ways the players want to exploit every flaw in our universes..

:lol:

 

[alex_greene]

Excellent! Thanks for all the great follow up work you guys do, if for no other reason than to ease our minds as we lie in bed at night with sweaty clammy hands, thinking of all the ways the players want to exploit every flaw in our universes..

:lol:

Setting up the flaws is an essential part of being a Referee. If they couldn't exploit loopholes, they wouldn't be Travellers.

 

[Spartan159]

Minor errors department, did anyone catch on HG2e page 216, Tigress Dreadnought, Small missile bay (size reduction x3) x430, tonnage says 15.050 when it should say 15,050? Yeah I know, nitpicking.

 

[AndrewW]

Minor errors department, did anyone catch on HG2e page 216, Tigress Dreadnought, Small missile bay (size reduction x3) x430, tonnage says 15.050 when it should say 15,050? Yeah I know, nitpicking.

Should be fixed in the next update. There's a few places where a comma was used instead of a period...

 

[rje]

Quick question re Azhanti. Weren't the decks aligned pependicular to her main direction of thrust? I was away from Traveller for many years, so maybe I missed a new version or interpretation of the original design.

What on earth happened to the AHL deckplans???

Design decision based on discussion with various people involved in Traveller. The ship was never really meant to be a tail sitter the deck plans corrected this.

Well, this is the new version.

"The ship was never really meant to be a tail sitter"

Just to clarify: that quote applies to this version of the AHL, and to that degree is correct.

This new version is an alternate. The original AHL was certainly intended to have a vertical orientation, and its deck plans are still valid.

 

[-Daniel-]

The cost of a planetoid or buffered planetoid, in my opinion, without grav plates is Cr4,000 per d-ton. Unfortunately, I have no idea on how figure out the cost or d-tons that adding grav plates on them would be. The ship's data card for the Planetoid Monitor on HG 2e p. 184/PDF p. 185 appears to support the cost as being Cr4,000.

Maybe I am missing something but didn't Matt above just say they are included?

Assume planetoids do come with gravity hulls (assumption for all hulls unless you deliberately decide otherwise).

 

[Condottiere]

The question would be, how much does it cost to install artificial gravity plates and/or inertial compensators, or do we just spin the rock?

 

[-Daniel-]

The question would be, how much does it cost to install artificial gravity plates and/or inertial compensators, or do we just spin the rock?

Except that if it is included, are you trying to find out how much you save by not including them?

 

[Condottiere]

Sure; you realize that if your Freetrader only accelerates at one gee, you don't need to pay for a top of the line installation guaranteeing a comfortable ride at nine.

One of my agendas has always been building the smallest, cheapest starship.

 

[arcador]

No-gravity-plates hull had a price at the beginning of the hull section. You can extrapolate it for the planetoid.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello AnotherDilbert,

Thank you for your help and I appear to be having a comprehension problem and or trying to eccentrically interpret the rules. I will try another route to see if I can get on the right track.

The International Space Station, the space shuttle and the space capsules are in my understanding "non-gravity hulls." Using artificial gravity plates, double hulls, or hamster cages generate a gravity field. A planetoid or buffered planetoid are "non-gravity hulls."

How do I calculate the d-tons and cost of adding grav plates to planetoid or buffered planetoid?

Can planetoid or buffered planetoid hulls use hamster cage or double hulls?

Planetoids are a configuration (hull shape) for hulls. They are not "non-gravity hulls" by default.

Assume planetoids do come with gravity hulls (assumption for all hulls unless you deliberately decide otherwise).

There is no defined cost for a Non-gravity planetoid hull (and the grav plates are remarkably cheap on planetoids).

The first step is to decide the amount of space or volume that will be enclosed by the structure being built. I've decided the volume will be 1,000 displacement tons (d-tons). There are two way to enclose a space with a volume of 1,000 d-tons. The first way was to build a frame that contains a volume of 1,000 d-tons. The second option is to take a rock from an asteroid/planetoid belt and tunnel out the required volume of 1,000 d-tons.

To build a structure or hull that has a volume of 1,000 d-tons cost Cr50,000 per d-ton and appears to include grav plates as part of the construction process. The cost of the basic hull is Cr50,000,000.

Using a rock from the planetoid/asteroid belt requires selecting the right size that will have enough material to allow the creations of a space that has a volume 1,000 d-tons. Once the right size rock has been selected it is towed to the shipyard where the tunneling is done to create the space to house a volume of 1,000 d tons at a cost of Cr4,000 per d-ton of rock.

The next step is to decided the configuration of the hull. There are five configurations to select from for hulls that are built to enclose a space with a volume of 1,000 d-tons. The configurations are standard, streamlined, sphere, close structure, and dispersed structure. The four of the configuration options increase or decrease the cost of the hull.

A rock taken from an asteroid/planetoid belt have two configurations which are planetoid and buffered planetoid. A planetoid hull configuration can only tunnel out 80% of the interior which means that to get a space with a volume of 1,000 d-tons my rock has to start with an unmodified volume of 1,250 d-tons with a cost of Cr5,000,000. A buffered planetoid can only remove 65% of its interior requiring the selection of a rock with a starting volume of approximately 1,538.462 d-tons and costs Cr6,153,848.

A hull with a volume of 1,000 d-tons using either standard, streamlined, sphere, close structure, or dispersed structure can be built without grav plates, referred to as non-gravity, for Cr25,000 per ton. The 1,000 d-ton without grav plates has a cost of Cr25,000,000.

A rock configured as a planetoid or buffered planetoid hull per Matthew Sprange assumes that they have grav plates and indicates that they are included as part of the Cr4,000. Which appears support "There is no defined cost for a Non-gravity planetoid hull (and the grav plates are remarkably cheap on planetoids)."

Based on the rule for the non-gravity hulls, if I am remotely close in my understanding to the rule, my guess is that the cost of a planetoid or buffered planetoid hull should total hull d-tons times Cr2,000.

According to the rules there are two alternate ways to create a 1G field on a hull instead of using grav plates. If I am following the rules the Cr50,000 per d-ton is for a hull configuration of standard, streamlined, close structure, or dispersed structure with grav plates.

Does installing a double hull or hamster cage to generate a 1G field add to the Cr50,000?

If not, how is the base cost of the hull determined?

I'm hoping that my comprehension and interpretation of the rules is in line with what they are saying.

 

[moriturimax]

No-gravity-plates hull had a price at the beginning of the hull section. You can extrapolate it for the planetoid.

Yeah, said 25,000 Cr instead of 50,000 Cr... for ship hulls... for planetoids the default cost is 4,000 Cr.. so extrapolating, planetoids without grav plates cost either 2,000 Cr or -21,000 Cr (wee you actually get PAID 21,000 Cr for not including them.).... but I am going to have to print these pages out, high light all the corrections and then balance out the different answers..

 

[moriturimax]

Dang, I shorely wish there was a way to upvote posts, some of these deserve +1s from those of us reading them.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Thank you for your help and I appear to be having a comprehension problem and or trying to eccentrically interpret the rules. I will try another route to see if I can get on the right track.

You're right, but I think you overcomplicate slightly.

I would say:
1. Choose total volume (exterior volume). Most further calculations are based on this, e.g. drives.
2. Choose Type: Gravity or Non-gravity.
3. Choose Configuration: Standard, Streamlined, Planetoid, etc.
4. Choose Special Features: Double Hull, Hamster Cage, and/or Breakaway Hull.

The cost becomes easy to calculate:
A 1000 dT hull, gravity, standard, 20% Hamster Cage costs 1000 × kCr 50 × 1.0 × ( 1 + 2% × 20 ) = MCr 70

A 1000 dT hull, non-gravity, streamlined, no special features costs 1000 × kCr 25 × 1.2 = MCr 30

A 1000 dT hull, gravity, planetoid, 20% Hamster Cage costs 1000 × kCr4 × ( 1 + 2% × 20 ) = MCr 5.6 (and has 800 dT usable space).

The only problem is if you chose type Non-gravity and configuration planetoid, because we do not know what that would cost.

 

[moriturimax]

The only problem is if you chose type Non-gravity and configuration planetoid, because we do not know what that would cost.

HAAA KAHLAL AKLAL HALLL ALALLALLA AAAALLLL! A pox on your ancestors, infidel! This is the whole core of the problem!

Heh heh, is there a chance that an answer will be forthcoming? I mean, I can come up with an answer that makes sense to me, I just thought it might be good not to diverge too much from the "official" rules so soon in the pipeline. After all, you guys all slave over a hot powerpc-based computer for months (years?) and I am sure you feel the disturbance in the force as if a thousand architects had seen the planetoid rule and screamed "No!!!!!"

Cheers!

ps thanks for those cost calculation examples, they'll help me crosscheck my spreadsheet.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello AnotherDilbert,

Updated on 08/25/16 0634 PDT: I noticed I left out three words at the end of the post which have been underlined to show the change.

Thank you for your help and I appear to be having a comprehension problem and or trying to eccentrically interpret the rules. I will try another route to see if I can get on the right track.

You're right, but I think you overcomplicate slightly.

I would say:
1. Choose total volume (exterior volume). Most further calculations are based on this, e.g. drives.

A hull's volume is based on its interior space not the exterior base. TNE FF&S states that basic hull volume is based on the dimensions of a sphere. The other configuration options modify the volume.

2. Choose Type: Gravity or Non-gravity.
3. Choose Configuration: Standard, Streamlined, Planetoid, etc.
4. Choose Special Features: Double Hull, Hamster Cage, and/or Breakaway Hull.

No quibbles with the above.

The cost becomes easy to calculate:
A 1000 dT hull, gravity, standard, 20% Hamster Cage costs 1000 × kCr 50 × 1.0 × ( 1 + 2% × 20 ) = MCr 70

From Mongoose Traveller HG 2e downloaded PDF 08/19/16

"Hamster Cage: This is a series of spun rings set at right angles to the rest of the hull. The rings must have a radius of at least 15 metres in order to produce a gravitational field. Machinery to spin a hamster cage uses 0.1 tons for every ton of spun ring. Unlike other designs, the hamster cage is usually set at right angles to the hull and installed in counter-rotating pairs, eliminating torque effects on the ship’s attitude. For each full percent of the hull which is made part of the hamster cage, the cost of the hull must be increased by +2%."

My understanding of the above material is that a hamster cage is an alternate, like a double hull, means of generating an 1G field in areas that are continuously occupied by crew and passengers instead of the entire hull. The cost of Cr50,000 per d-ton based on the information in the Non-gravity Hulls section includes the installation of grav plates.

Using both grav plates and a hamster cage does not make sense to me.

A 1000 dT hull, non-gravity, streamlined, no special features costs 1000 × kCr 25 × 1.2 = MCr 30

Yippee, I am on the right track for this one.

A 1000 dT hull, gravity, planetoid, 20% Hamster Cage costs 1000 × kCr4 × ( 1 + 2% × 20 ) = MCr 5.6 (and has 800 dT usable space).

Crud, we are back to the issue that a gravity hull, in my opinion, does not need a hamster cage to since per the Non-Gravity hulls section and Matthew Sprange's comment that planetoid and buffered planetoid hulls are "assumed to be gravity hulls" and have grav plates installed creating a 1G field inside the planetoid or buffered planetoid hull's interior occupied by the crew and passengers.

I agree more with the planetoid/buffered planetoid cost of Cr4,000 per d-ton including grav plates than I do with installing either a double hull or hamster cage in their hull.

The only problem is if you chose type Non-gravity and configuration planetoid, because we do not know what that would cost.

Yes, the cost of non-gravity planetoid and buffered planetoid hulls does appear to have been overlooked when HG 2e was being tested. In my opinion if Cr4,000 includes grav plates then like the constructed hulls of standard, streamlined, sphere, close structure, or dispersed structure hulls without grav plates cost half the price for non-gravity planetoid and buffered planetoid hulls should be Cr2,000 per d-ton.

Thank you for the reply and my apologies for continuing to sticking with my view point. Since I have proven to have a comprehension issue and eccentric rule interpretation I'll stop posting on the forum about this topic and ask to be contacted off the forum to continue the discussion.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello arcador,

No-gravity-plates hull had a price at the beginning of the hull section. You can extrapolate it for the planetoid.

My apologies for taking so long to reply.

I have extrapolated that if the Cr4,000 per d-ton of planetoid/buffered planetoid hull includes grav plates the cost, based on the Cr25,000 per d-ton cost for Non-Gravity hulls, appears to be Cr2,000 per d-ton of hull.

Unfortunately, without a nod from the Powers That Be the extrapolation is an unofficial rule and would only be allowed in a campaign that the referee and players agree to having a non-gravity planetoid/buffered planetoid hull.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

A hull's volume is based on its interior space not the exterior base. TNE FF&S states that basic hull volume is based on the dimensions of a sphere. The other configuration options modify the volume.

No. The hull size it the total volume of the hull. The configuration is the geometric shape of the hull which modifies surface area and hence how much hull material (armour) we need to enclose the hull.

A 1000 dT streamlined ship is has 1000 dT available completely unmodified by the configuration. The hull and any armour is 20% more expensive.

A 1000 dT Planetoid ship has 800 dT available and 200 dT not usable, it is still a 1000 dT hull. All calculations based on hull, like hull cost or drive sizes, uses 1000 dT as base value. Look at the asteroid ship on p128, the hull size is 300 dT of which 60 dT is not usable and 240 dT available.

Example: A 1000 dT hull is 14000 m3. It can either be a sphere with radius of 14.95 m or a cube with a side of 24.1 m, either way the volume is 14000 m3. The surface area is not the same so hull and armour costs are not the same.

My understanding of the above material is that a hamster cage is an alternate, like a double hull, means of generating an 1G field in areas that are continuously occupied by crew and passengers instead of the entire hull. The cost of Cr50,000 per d-ton based on the information in the Non-gravity Hulls section includes the installation of grav plates.

Using both grav plates and a hamster cage does not make sense to me.

Quite, you do not need it, it is not generally done, but it could be done for special purposes, e.g. something like the Lab Ship. I just wanted to show the cost calculation since it is about the most complicated case for hulls.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

A 1000 dT hull, gravity, standard, 20% Hamster Cage costs 1000 × kCr 50 × 1.0 × ( 1 + 2% × 20 ) = MCr 70

And I just realised that this is perhaps not true. The percentage modifiers might be added, not multiplied.

A 1000 dT hull, gravity, streamlined, 20% Hamster Cage might cost:

1000 × kCr 50 × 1.2 × ( 1 + 2% × 20 ) = MCr 84

or

1000 × kCr 50 × ( 1 + 20% + 2% × 20 ) = MCr 80