High Guard is Here!

[snrdg121408]

Hello all,

What is the power requirement and cost of an empty barbette?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

What is the power requirement and cost of an empty barbette?

We have no idea. Perhaps the barbettes are tailor-made for the weapon, so no standard empty barbette exits?

 

[snrdg121408]

Afternoon PDT AnotherDilbert,

What is the power requirement and cost of an empty barbette?

We have no idea. Perhaps the barbettes are tailor-made for the weapon, so no standard empty barbette exits?

I was hoping that I was missing the information and not that there was not an empty barbette to use as a secondary placeholder beyond hardpoint/firmpoint like an empty fixed mount/turret.

Having an empty barbette would have, in my opinion, been in keeping with the fixed mount and turrets characteristics. Thank you for the answer.

 

[EldritchFire]

Almost noon PDT all,

Silly question or two about firmpoints coming up:

A 75 d-ton small craft can opt to have a maximum of three firmpoints allocated to the hull during construction.

To allocate weapons I have to install either a fixed mount or a single turret.

Installing three fixed mounts means I can install one weapon per fixed mount right?

Could I install a mix of fixed mount and single turret or two or three single turrets?

You can actually install up to three weapons per firmpoint. "A firmpoint on a small craft is a fixed mount… (pg 23) and "Up to three weapons may be mounted on a fixed mount…" (pg24).

 

[AnotherDilbert]

You can actually install up to three weapons per firmpoint. "A firmpoint on a small craft is a fixed mount… (pg 23) and "Up to three weapons may be mounted on a fixed mount…" (pg24).

You left out a strategic part of the quote:

Up to three weapons may be mounted on a fixed mount (small craft have additional limitations),

But you are right, it is not clearly stated anywhere that a fixed mount on a firmpoint can only mount one single weapon.

It is clearly intended, as can be seen in the small craft examples, but not actually stated anywhere.

 

[-Daniel-]

It is clearly intended, as can be seen in the small craft examples, but not actually stated anywhere.

Please don't take this personal AnotherDilbert. I am growing tired of how many things in this new edition are "clearly intended" or "not sure what is meant" or just plain not stated. An edition of a game should stand on it's own. Not require me to own other editions published from other publishers, or even their own 1e. The rules should be clearly stated or clearly the options outlined and then clearly stated that the GM selects the best option.

Sorry for the rant. I am just seeing this quite a bit lately and it makes me sad. I know Mongoose can do better.

 

[EldritchFire]

I agree with -Daniel-, it's not clearly intended at all. It's not listed that firmpoints cannot mount two or three weapons, and thus you are allowed to do so.

The only limitations are:

• Weapons of Medium range or less are reduced to Adjacent range.
• Weapons of greater range are reduced to Close range.
• A weapon on a Firmpoint may not have its range increased beyond Close by any means.
• Power requirements of the weapon are reduced by 25% (rounding up).

There is nothing listed that limits the number of weapons. Heck, many sci-fi shows have craft with dual-mounted weapons on firmpoints: TIEs have two laser cannons, and Vipers have two mass accelerator cannons, death gliders have two staff cannons, etc.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Please don't take this personal AnotherDilbert. I am growing tired of how many things in this new edition are "clearly intended" or "not sure what is meant" or just plain not stated.

I have no reason to take it personally, I have no affiliation with Mongoose.

I basically agree with you, but I have resigned myself to the fact that MgT2 work that way.

I agree with -Daniel-, it's not clearly intended at all. It's not listed that firmpoints cannot mount two or three weapons, and thus you are allowed to do so.

Yes, you are right about RAW, but that is not what was intended. So, yes, it should be clarified.

The issue came up tangentially during beta:

The rules for Type A:

Up to three weapons may be mounted on a fixed mount (small craft have additional limitations – see page XX),

If this rule has nothing to do with small craft, why does it say that small craft has additional limitations, hinting that this rule applies to small craft?

It does actually. It is refering to the fact that smallcraft firmpoints can be fixed mounts or turrets. Extra clarity is given so if you use a smallcraft firmpoint fixed mount, you can still only mount 1 weapon there, not 3 as is indicated in the base rules.

Examples with each firmpoint labelled 1-, 2- or 3-:

30 ton fighter A: 1 - fixed mount pulse laser (reduced range & power consumption)

...

Illegal configs:
30 ton fighter A: 1 - fixed mount triple pulse laser (only a single weapon per fixed mount firmpoint)

http://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/viewtopic.php?p=894817#p894817

 

[EldritchFire]

I for one am glad that rule never made it into the book. As I said in my prior post, dual-mounted firmpoints are a staple sci-fi—well, the sci-fi I consume, in any event. I could see limiting it to only two weapons, due to the size (or lack thereof) of the firmpoints, but only one just doesn't jive with my vision of sci-fi.

 

[snrdg121408]

Morning EldritchFire,

Thank you for the additional comments answering my earlier concerns on HG 2e small craft firmpoints.

I agree with -Daniel-, it's not clearly intended at all. It's not listed that firmpoints cannot mount two or three weapons, and thus you are allowed to do so.

The only limitations are:

• Weapons of Medium range or less are reduced to Adjacent range.
• Weapons of greater range are reduced to Close range.
• A weapon on a Firmpoint may not have its range increased beyond Close by any means.
• Power requirements of the weapon are reduced by 25% (rounding up).

HG 2e Small Craft p. 24 "A Firmpoint on a small craft is a fixed mount (typically forward-facing, but there is no requirement for this), but can be upgraded to a single (not double or triple) turret."

I consider a turret capable of holding a single weapon being installed on a firmpoint/fixed mount to be a limitation. Which is why I based my earlier example on mounting a single weapon on a small craft firmpoint.

There is nothing listed that limits the number of weapons. Heck, many sci-fi shows have craft with dual-mounted weapons on firmpoints: TIEs have two laser cannons, and Vipers have two mass accelerator cannons, death gliders have two staff cannons, etc.

I am a big fan of the original 1978 Battlestar Galactica which I recorded many of the episodes on VHS tape. Unfortunately, the tapes due to age get eaten by VHS players, however I did mange to pick up the original movie on DVD which I have reviewed. From what I can see the Viper has a weapon mounted on either side of the where the wings meet the fuselage.

Looking at the Battlestar Galactic RPG, pictures, illustrations, film clips, Wikipedia, and other web material from the 2004 version a Viper, depending on the model, appears to mount two or three weapons. Like the 1978 model two weapons are mounted where in the wings, and a third one i mounted on the Viper's tail.

All the material I have access to indicates to me that the weapons are in separate fixed mounts.

The TIE fighter I'll have to dig out my Star Wars stuff but IIRC the weapons appear to me to be in separate mounts on either side of the fighter's center line.

I could be mistaken but the weapons mounted in the wings of WW II fighters seem to have been fixed in place separately which made if easier to replace ones that malfunctioned or damaged.

 

[EldritchFire]

Morning EldritchFire,

Thank you for the additional comments answering my earlier concerns on HG 2e small craft firmpoints.

I agree with -Daniel-, it's not clearly intended at all. It's not listed that firmpoints cannot mount two or three weapons, and thus you are allowed to do so.

The only limitations are:

• Weapons of Medium range or less are reduced to Adjacent range.
• Weapons of greater range are reduced to Close range.
• A weapon on a Firmpoint may not have its range increased beyond Close by any means.
• Power requirements of the weapon are reduced by 25% (rounding up).

HG 2e Small Craft p. 24 "A Firmpoint on a small craft is a fixed mount (typically forward-facing, but there is no requirement for this), but can be upgraded to a single (not double or triple) turret."

I consider a turret capable of holding a single weapon being installed on a firmpoint/fixed mount to be a limitation. Which is why I based my earlier example on mounting a single weapon on a small craft firmpoint.

There is nothing listed that limits the number of weapons. Heck, many sci-fi shows have craft with dual-mounted weapons on firmpoints: TIEs have two laser cannons, and Vipers have two mass accelerator cannons, death gliders have two staff cannons, etc.

I am a big fan of the original 1978 Battlestar Galactica which I recorded many of the episodes on VHS tape. Unfortunately, the tapes due to age get eaten by VHS players, however I did mange to pick up the original movie on DVD which I have reviewed. From what I can see the Viper has a weapon mounted on either side of the where the wings meet the fuselage.

Looking at the Battlestar Galactic RPG, pictures, illustrations, film clips, Wikipedia, and other web material from the 2004 version a Viper, depending on the model, appears to mount two or three weapons. Like the 1978 model two weapons are mounted where in the wings, and a third one i mounted on the Viper's tail.

All the material I have access to indicates to me that the weapons are in separate fixed mounts.

The TIE fighter I'll have to dig out my Star Wars stuff but IIRC the weapons appear to me to be in separate mounts on either side of the fighter's center line.

I could be mistaken but the weapons mounted in the wings of WW II fighters seem to have been fixed in place separately which made if easier to replace ones that malfunctioned or damaged.

While there are two weapons, I consider them only one firmpoint, since they are fired at the same time at the same target. With only one pilot, a Viper is unable to fire two different weapons, but if they're fire-linked (2 weapons in one firmpoint) then—by the rules—they both fire at the same time, at the same target, and grant the +1/die bonus to damage.

Unless, of course, I'm missing something and two different weapons on two different mountings can benefit from the 'same type = bonus damage' rule. But even then, the rules wouldn't support Stargate's F-302 with two railguns and 4 missiles. Or Star Wars' Y-wing with dual blaster cannons, dual ion cannons (no turret ions, to boot), and two proton torpedo launchers. Maybe Star Wars is a bad example, since almost all weapons are either dual- or quad-linked anyway.

Because of this, I assume that one firmpoint is one weapon system. Either one weapon, dual-linked or tri-linked (the latter case can be seen in Robotech's Zentradi fighters with a triple-laster cannon on the nose).

 

[Condottiere]

In theory, you can load smallcraft for bear, but it's probably to prevent players from revolutionizing naval combat.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I do not see any problem with the pilot firing all fixed mounts, they don't have to be on the same hard-/firm-point:

However, a pilot may fire any weapons that are noted as being in fixed mounts

Core, p156.

Each hard-/firm-point is probably a separate attack.

 

[EldritchFire]

I do not see any problem with the pilot firing all fixed mounts, they don't have to be on the same hard-/firm-point:

However, a pilot may fire any weapons that are noted as being in fixed mounts

Core, p156.

Each hard-/firm-point is probably a separate attack.

That, to me, says that a pilot can choose to fire any fixed-mount weapon, not choose to fire all fixed-mount weapons. As in, if you have two fixed-mounted weapons, the pilot may fire one or the other—not both.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I do not see any problem with the pilot firing all fixed mounts, they don't have to be on the same hard-/firm-point:

However, a pilot may fire any weapons that are noted as being in fixed mounts

Core, p156.

That, to me, says that a pilot can choose to fire any fixed-mount weapon, not choose to fire all fixed-mount weapons. As in, if you have two fixed-mounted weapons, the pilot may fire one or the other—not both.

English is not my native language, but I see a different between "any weapon" = any one weapon, and "any weapons" = as many weapons as you want. I wouldn't be surprised if I was wrong.

 

[-Daniel-]

I for one am glad that rule never made it into the book. As I said in my prior post, dual-mounted firmpoints are a staple sci-fi—well, the sci-fi I consume, in any event. I could see limiting it to only two weapons, due to the size (or lack thereof) of the firmpoints, but only one just doesn't jive with my vision of sci-fi.

But some rule should have been there. Regardless of restrictive or not, to just leave it vague and unclear begs for conflict and confusion among fans.

 

[EldritchFire]

I do not see any problem with the pilot firing all fixed mounts, they don't have to be on the same hard-/firm-point:
Core, p156.

That, to me, says that a pilot can choose to fire any fixed-mount weapon, not choose to fire all fixed-mount weapons. As in, if you have two fixed-mounted weapons, the pilot may fire one or the other—not both.

English is not my native language, but I see a different between "any weapon" = any one weapon, and "any weapons" = as many weapons as you want. I wouldn't be surprised if I was wrong.

Sorry for my short post earlier, but I was on my way out the door. My reasoning behind one or the other—and not all—is when it says, "Attacking with weapons mounted on spacecraft uses the same rules as detailed in the Combat chapter, with the following exceptions…" (pg156 core). And per the combat chapter, each character can only attack once. Hence my view on one character, on attack.

-Daniel-, I didn't even think it vague until it was brought up here that you couldn't have two or three weapons in a mount. As I said above, from all of the sci-fi that I watch, it's so common for two weapons per mount that it never occurred to me otherwise.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

My reasoning behind one or the other—and not all—is when it says, "Attacking with weapons mounted on spacecraft uses the same rules as detailed in the Combat chapter, with the following exceptions…" (pg156 core). And per the combat chapter, each character can only attack once. Hence my view on one character, on attack.

Pedantically I would say that you may only perform one "Significant Action: Attack", but that action may contain several Attacks (attack rolls) as per p75 (Dual Weapons, Full Auto).

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello again EldritchFire,

Morning EldritchFire,

Thank you for the additional comments answering my earlier concerns on HG 2e small craft firmpoints.

I agree with -Daniel-, it's not clearly intended at all. It's not listed that firmpoints cannot mount two or three weapons, and thus you are allowed to do so.

The only limitations are:

• Weapons of Medium range or less are reduced to Adjacent range.
• Weapons of greater range are reduced to Close range.
• A weapon on a Firmpoint may not have its range increased beyond Close by any means.
• Power requirements of the weapon are reduced by 25% (rounding up).

HG 2e Small Craft p. 24 "A Firmpoint on a small craft is a fixed mount (typically forward-facing, but there is no requirement for this), but can be upgraded to a single (not double or triple) turret."

I consider a turret capable of holding a single weapon being installed on a firmpoint/fixed mount to be a limitation. Which is why I based my earlier example on mounting a single weapon on a small craft firmpoint.

There is nothing listed that limits the number of weapons. Heck, many sci-fi shows have craft with dual-mounted weapons on firmpoints: TIEs have two laser cannons, and Vipers have two mass accelerator cannons, death gliders have two staff cannons, etc.

I am a big fan of the original 1978 Battlestar Galactica which I recorded many of the episodes on VHS tape. Unfortunately, the tapes due to age get eaten by VHS players, however I did mange to pick up the original movie on DVD which I have reviewed. From what I can see the Viper has a weapon mounted on either side of the where the wings meet the fuselage.

Looking at the Battlestar Galactic RPG, pictures, illustrations, film clips, Wikipedia, and other web material from the 2004 version a Viper, depending on the model, appears to mount two or three weapons. Like the 1978 model two weapons are mounted where in the wings, and a third one i mounted on the Viper's tail.

All the material I have access to indicates to me that the weapons are in separate fixed mounts.

The TIE fighter I'll have to dig out my Star Wars stuff but IIRC the weapons appear to me to be in separate mounts on either side of the fighter's center line.

I could be mistaken but the weapons mounted in the wings of WW II fighters seem to have been fixed in place separately which made if easier to replace ones that malfunctioned or damaged.

While there are two weapons, I consider them only one firmpoint, since they are fired at the same time at the same target. With only one pilot, a Viper is unable to fire two different weapons, but if they're fire-linked (2 weapons in one firmpoint) then—by the rules—they both fire at the same time, at the same target, and grant the +1/die bonus to damage.

The P-51 Mustang has three separately fixed 50 caliber machine guns installed in each wing. All the guns are sighted to concentrate their fire at a specific range. A single hit will not take all six out of action since they are in separate mounts and on two different sides of the aircraft.

Unless, of course, I'm missing something and two different weapons on two different mountings can benefit from the 'same type = bonus damage' rule. But even then, the rules wouldn't support Stargate's F-302 with two railguns and 4 missiles. Or Star Wars' Y-wing with dual blaster cannons, dual ion cannons (no turret ions, to boot), and two proton torpedo launchers. Maybe Star Wars is a bad example, since almost all weapons are either dual- or quad-linked anyway.

Because of this, I assume that one firmpoint is one weapon system. Either one weapon, dual-linked or tri-linked (the latter case can be seen in Robotech's Zentradi fighters with a triple-laster cannon on the nose).

HG 2e p. 24 "If two or more weapons are of the same type, they may be fired together. One attack roll is made for all weapons being fired, but each additional weapon adds +1 per damage dice to the final damage total."

Two single laser turrets target the same ship per the above rule they are fired together and would receive the bonus.

Two single fixed mounted lasers, based the real world, are designed to fire at the same time and sighted so that their beams merge at the same spot on a target. They get the bonus too.

If both the weapons on mounted on the same side of the aircraft, aerospace fighter, or whatever I agree that the two weapons could be on the same fixed mount. They are still going to be sighted so that their slugs, energy, or whatever hits the target at the same spot.

In CT LBB5 HG 2e 1980 small craft are limited to a maximum three weapons which are assumed for combat purposes to be in the appropriately sized turret. The rules also state the weapons are probably fixed mounted.

The fighters in the short lived TV show Space Above and Beyond, Babylon 5, or any number of real world aircraft cannot be designed in MgT because they have more than three fixed mounting points.

I am, after some pondering, leaning towards being able to mount three weapons per small craft firmpoint (fixed mount) since that would allow, in my opinion, a more real world feel to their armament.

 

[EldritchFire]

My reasoning behind one or the other—and not all—is when it says, "Attacking with weapons mounted on spacecraft uses the same rules as detailed in the Combat chapter, with the following exceptions…" (pg156 core). And per the combat chapter, each character can only attack once. Hence my view on one character, on attack.

Pedantically I would say that you may only perform one "Significant Action: Attack", but that action may contain several Attacks (attack rolls) as per p75 (Dual Weapons, Full Auto).

But using dual weapons requires "weapons that can reasonably be used in a single hand each", and mounted weapons don't meet that criteria. As for the auto trait, that's still attacking with one weapon, just multiple times. But it's still only one weapon used.