High Guard 2022 example ships crew messed up?

[swordtart]

I would not recommend Traveller Worlds, but if it works for you, go for it. Not going to rehash 40 years of discussion on ship economics, either. If you want to delve into that, there's already endless discussions on it on this and every other Traveller forum ever.

I am starting to see inconsistency in Traveller Worlds. I was hoping as it was linked from Traveller Map it would be somewhat canon, but it might be more random than I had anticipated (the results there on Tarsus for example are very different from the sourcebook).

I'd like a simple way of determining when normal space travel becomes a significant issue, and it would be nice to have a lookup table rather than hand crank it all, but I can see I am going to have to do that (possibly using an earlier simpler version of the system generation model as even the CT scout book is a drawn out process). Fortunately I only have a very small number of systems to work up.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Rule 0 in action...

Rule Zero is for Referees and Players, not published ship/vehicle/robot/equipment design.

 

[Condottiere]

 

[Vormaerin]

I am starting to see inconsistency in Traveller Worlds. I was hoping as it was linked from Traveller Map it would be somewhat canon, but it might be more random than I had anticipated (the results there on Tarsus for example are very different from the sourcebook).

I'd like a simple way of determining when normal space travel becomes a significant issue, and it would be nice to have a lookup table rather than hand crank it all, but I can see I am going to have to do that (possibly using an earlier simpler version of the system generation model as even the CT scout book is a drawn out process). Fortunately I only have a very small number of systems to work up.

As the World Builder's Handbook says, if all you need is to get from planet to planet, then the simple system of just generating the mainworld and a few minor bits besides is all you need. Anyone doing the many versions of "planet of the week" gameplay does not require a more complicated system than that. That's not me. But I normally reverse engineer things. "I want X. What has to be true for that to be the case?" rather than trying to crank out all the numbers in the full detail way.

As far as Travellerworlds go, I'm not an expert on what its issues are. But I am pretty sure that it is based on T5's random system generator, not Mongoose's, for starters. And either it is based off an early version of the rules that had flaws or the program itself is buggy. I know it is usually way off on temperatures. As far as I am aware, the only thing it pulls from Travellermap is the UWP (and maybe the gas giants?). It definitely won't match any write ups in published books or on the wiki.

 

[tytalan]

A couple of things
1) most designs by mongoose don’t work by either the CRB or HG 2022, the Gazelle is a good example no matter how you look at it the tonnage doesn’t match.
2) in some ships cases the crew requirements are legacy from early editions of Traveller which often didn’t work even back than

 

[phavoc]

Mop the deck.
We mopped the deck.
Good, now wax the deck.
The deck is waxed.
Now strip the deck, and there will be more of the same on the morrow.

Buffers and wax (and the navalized equivalent) probably remain the bane of crews and soldiers in any epoch.

 

[phavoc]

Okay I am not the most savvy while dealing with high guard but are the example vessels meeting the required crew requirements?

High guard pg 23 by my reading which may be wrong indicates that a minimum crew of a civilian starship consists of the following

1 pilot
1 astrogator
1 engineer
1 maintenance
1 administrator
1 sensor op
1 medic
1 officer who in a civilian vessel also acts as the captain

for a total of 8 crew.

Many of the civilian vessels don't meet this requirement let alone exceed it. The lab ship crew is listed as pilot and astrogator for a 360 ton ship. Maintenance crew on is first mentioned for a civilian ship with the subsidised liner a 600 ton ship. Are the designers rounding down (I was told quite firmly in another thread that I should round up) or are the designers playing loose and fast with the crew rules?

As I see it, those are roles, and not necessarily individual positions that must be filled by an individual. The reality is going to be that automation takes a lot of the skut work away from crews, and automation requires a bit of attention as well.

For small ships, especially non-military ones, it is not unexpected to see no one manning the bridge 24x7. Sensors will alert them to incoming hazards (or at least known ones that can be detected). On a military ship I'd expect a watch to be conducted on the bridge, in engineering and probably in the weapons control section. Everything else is subject to change based on what is happening on the ship. Smaller ships, like a Scout, may see their bridge fully occupied only during jump re-entry, or scanning of planets up close and everyone is curious. Otherwise the systems will do the work and they just need to monitor them and provide oversight (or else review the sensor data to look closer at things of interest).

In theory a pilot can double as the navigator and sensor operator. The engineer can double as the maintenance guy, and maybe the medic is the admin. Anyone can wear the captain's hat. However.... when things get busy it gets harder to do multiple jobs. Piloting the ship and evading incoming fire makes it harder to read the sensors and plot the jump accurately. So as your time is focused on other tasks your chances of mistakes increase in the minor things. That can be easily accounted for in die rolls with additional difficulty in successful rolls, depending on circumstances.

You are also going to see smaller, less professional ships (i.e. the ones full of PC's) going slack with certain things. Think of the episodes on Firefly where they ran parts down to the bone (and then some) because they had no cash to buy spares. Or when they were all at the dinner table and nobody was on the bridge. Episodes like that are likely to be handled more by PC's than by professional crews (pirates might be professional rogues, but they would most likely lack a sense of formality due to their chosen profession).

There is a lot of wiggle room here to make things different and fun for all involved (including Evile GM's rolling dice and cackling evile behind their screens... for no apparent reason!)

 

[Shardan13]

Phavoc, I appreciate the points you are making and there been plenty of people telling me in this thread that player crewed ships positions will be somewhat loose. The issue I had was that the example ships profession crew didn't seem to fit what the required table said. Thanks to some help it turned out that some of the positions were rounded down, some were rounded up, some rounded to the nearest number and one example of a typo slipping past editing.

Also I think it's appropriate that players suffer some difficulties when their characters find themselves in a high stress situation onboard a ship and need to be a two places at once, just as long as I'm not in the player group in question .

 

[Condottiere]

Depends also on the career culture.

Scouts would be more communal, merchant lackadaisical, navy controlled.

I tend to think that astrogators in the Scouts and Navy are going to be encouraged to acquire more skill points in their chosen vocation, plus any that modify that positively when on a roll.

So, lots of stargazing.

 

[hopsnbaer]

You need them in combat, otherwise the Astrogator will do.

Even small ships might need several SensOps in combat...


The crew requirement comes from:

So, round down to get the minimum.

Yeah, but there is generally only one Sensor Ops Station.

 

[hopsnbaer]

Phavoc, I appreciate the points you are making and there been plenty of people telling me in this thread that player crewed ships positions will be somewhat loose. The issue I had was that the example ships profession crew didn't seem to fit what the required table said. Thanks to some help it turned out that some of the positions were rounded down, some were rounded up, some rounded to the nearest number and one example of a typo slipping past editing.

Also I think it's appropriate that players suffer some difficulties when their characters find themselves in a high stress situation onboard a ship and need to be a two places at once, just as long as I'm not in the player group in question .

I am pretty sure a -2 Modifier to do more than one task at a time is RAW.

 

[tytalan]

The biggest crew issue is military or paramilitary ships. The crew requirements make lots of sense for these ships but mongoose rarely follows their own rules in this case. I find a quick fix is considering how it’s done in the actual navy, enlisted crew members sleep in barracks just like the marines and stateroom are reserved for NCOs and Officers. So I usually replace a third to half of the standard staterooms with barracks, than on small craft I use double occupancy staterooms for the lower rank officers and the NCOs while the captain has a single. On larger ships I break things up even more with the NCOs and Lower rank Officers having double staterooms, the higher rank officers having singles and the captain getting a high stateroom (at this rank I give line officers a steward). On flagships the flag officer will have a high or luxury stateroom and his staff will have rooms appropriate for their ranks often separate from the ships crew.

Barracks only make sense for your average seaman.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I'd say it would be a legal requirement but I couldn't say how often it was enforced. Probably part of the normal starport Admin hassle.

It cannot be a legal requirement because it is in a setting-agnostic section of the book, a section that makes no assumptions about the legal universe that you are playing in. It is a rule that applies in all universes unless the Referee Rule Zeros it.

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

A mortgage is only 50% profit sapping outgoing. 50% of the Mortgage is actually investment and that in itself is profit as you are converting income into a 240th of the ship per month.

240 months is 20 years. The mortgage is 40 years. You gain 1/480th ownership per month. This is of course simplified. One thing I do is for each month paid off early I drop the remaining term by 2 months.

It might be an idea to allow the characters to borrow against that equity by adding 2 months to the remaining term for each month of mortgage equivalent they need to borrow (never allowing it to go above that 480 at most, probably less), longer the higher the risk of course.

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

It needs a virtual Sensor operator to stand watch. As it only simulates 1 person it should be substantially cheaper in bandwidth and Cr's than Virtual Crew or Virtual gunner. Also it is more passive in that it just decides simple things like "anomaly detected" and "X is on a collision/intercept course" without taking action.

 

[MasterGwydion]

It needs a virtual Sensor operator to stand watch. As it only simulates 1 person it should be substantially cheaper in bandwidth and Cr's than Virtual Crew or Virtual gunner. Also it is more passive in that it just decides simple things like "anomaly detected" and "X is on a collision/intercept course" without taking action.

Just needs a Basic Brain and it can do this job fine and is less than 200 Credits

 

[Vormaerin]

On one hand, yes, it would be a programming feature of the computer. But as a practical matter, that's probably a Bandwidth 0 program if not just an integral part of the "operate a ship" program. "Beep if something weird happens" is not an outrageous ask today and certainly should improve over the next 3500 years.

Frankly, if that's not a default feature of the starship's operating system for most stations, then the entire crewing scheme collapses. If the ship can't be trusted to do that, you need at least 3 Engineers and 3 Bridge crew to operate the ship safely. And that's not the kind of story we are looking to replicate.

 

[swordtart]

240 months is 20 years. The mortgage is 40 years. You gain 1/480th ownership per month. This is of course simplified. One thing I do is for each month paid off early I drop the remaining term by 2 months.

It might be an idea to allow the characters to borrow against that equity by adding 2 months to the remaining term for each month of mortgage equivalent they need to borrow (never allowing it to go above that 480 at most, probably less), longer the higher the risk of course.

Yes, got myself all confused by discounting the interest. Amortization is a delightful field to spend some happy hours with a calculator

I wouldn't permit players to borrow money as borrowing dulls the edge of husbandry. With plenty of capital trade becomes a magic money machine. It is limiting the access to money in the early game that stops it all running off the rails (and encourages them to take that KCr10 job). Once they are saving the galaxy then they need to splash the cash, but starting out I prefer to keep it lean.

 

[rinku]

It's interesting to see how much discussion was basically triggered by that one typo/omission in HG. The CRB Lab ship entry has the Engineer and Medic listed, on the missing line under Pilot and Astrogator.

The crew role discussions in HG help a bit with working it all out. So for Maintenance:

"Small ships can run with the aid of one or two engineers but commercial ships of 1,000 tons or more and military ships of 500 tons or more
require additional personnel to keep everything running properly."
and...

"While there is no formal requirement for ships with fewer than 120 crew and passengers to hire a medic, having someone on hand with the Medic skill is recommended. Ships carrying middle passengers should have at least one crew member with Medic 1+ and if transporting high passengers, there should be one with Medic 2+."

It would be nice if those points were on the table, but at least they are in the book.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Just needs a Basic Brain and it can do this job fine and is less than 200 Credits

Why not have a cheap robot brain in every system control panel...
avionics brain, sensor brain, engineering brain for each major drive and environmental system...

(3x drive, 2x gravitics, environmental, recycling) so Cr. 1800

the meat puppets are just there to push the buttons the brains tell them to push, to tighten the screws they are told to tighten etc.