High Guard 2022 example ships crew messed up?

[Shardan13]

Okay I am not the most savvy while dealing with high guard but are the example vessels meeting the required crew requirements?

High guard pg 23 by my reading which may be wrong indicates that a minimum crew of a civilian starship consists of the following

1 pilot
1 astrogator
1 engineer
1 maintenance
1 administrator
1 sensor op
1 medic
1 officer who in a civilian vessel also acts as the captain

for a total of 8 crew.

Many of the civilian vessels don't meet this requirement let alone exceed it. The lab ship crew is listed as pilot and astrogator for a 360 ton ship. Maintenance crew on is first mentioned for a civilian ship with the subsidised liner a 600 ton ship. Are the designers rounding down (I was told quite firmly in another thread that I should round up) or are the designers playing loose and fast with the crew rules?

 

[Arkathan]

Sensops can be ignored on smaller vessels. Officers can also be ignored for a small vessel, until you reach ten or twenty crew members, since it is FULL increments of the requirement (rounded down).
A ship under 2000 tons can generally muddle through without an administrator. Edit: 1000 for military ships.
That leaves 5.

 

[Shardan13]

Arkathan, I believe it was you who told me to roundup with the sensor ops. While it does say on pg 97 that the position can be part time the crew the crew determination table doesn't suggest this unless you round down otherwise a 7501 vessel suddenly needs 2 sensors ops.

With administrators it does mention on pg 85 that civilian vessels of 2000 ton can live without them but the crew determination table doesn't mention that unless you round down otherwise a 2001 ton vessel suddenly needs 2 administrators.

I guess a numbered footnote(s) under the crew determine table saying something like "vessels under (xxxx) tons don't require this position"

I admit that I missed the full part for the officers. The officer is swapped out for a captain unless a captain is only needed with a crew of 20 plus for a civilian vessel.

Also even by your shown standard the example civilian crews are still messed such as the labatory ship's crew of 2 (unless there's been an update to high guard I was aware of)

 

[swordtart]

Spacecraft in the hands of small-time traders or adventurers usually run with a bare minimum of crew, with personnel often fulfilling more than one role as situations demand. For example, it is common on a smaller ship for the pilot to also act as the astrogator, or a steward to have basic medical skills. This keeps the monthly salary bill low and increases what might otherwise be very slim profits.
HG Update 22 p22

The crew requirements are the roles that need to be filled, technically the people filling those roles don't even have to have any relevant skill (since anyone can do anything at -3). A licence to operate should however require at least Skill 0 for those roles (basic competence). In low law systems this may not be enforced or there are always bribes.

A single character who flunked out of the Scouts with only basic training has Pilot, Mechanic and Astrogation. Medic and Electronics are also available as background skills so these are not scarce. If a crewman does double duty then he is supposed to be paid 75% for each (not sure where I read that) and it is frowned upon for them to be doing more than 1 extra role, but this is also frequently ignored for expediency (though crew who do so will quickly get burned out). Your referee might impose a bane on finding freight or passengers if it becomes common knowledge that you are running with less than the expected crew numbers.

Other roles could be covered by specialist droids (like the SED or Crew Droid in the Robot Handbook) and they can live in a cubbyhole until required. Some personal equipment and ship upgrades also provide effective skill levels without requiring a dedicated crewman.

If you are only jumping every other week and not doing other things in port during the alternate week you could probably manage with a very small crew with everyone mucking in. If you choose to go adventuring on this alternate week though you will probably need to pay for professional help to conduct the maintenance you are not doing.

The crew listings in the sample ship are a "serving suggestion" and variations are often mentioned in the description box.

The only functions you absolutely need to cover are pilot as they fly the ship and, for ships with jump capability, astrogator as they provide jump coordinates and engineer as they activate the jump drive. Everyone else is there in case of incidents or the requirements of that specific trip (i.e. you may or may not have passengers of a specific type). You can take on people working their passage for those duties or muddle though until you get to port with a Swiss army knife and a positive mental attitude.


It is more risky, but risk is adventure.

 

[Shardan13]

I accept your argument that small ships will have crew that will take on various positions due to small profit margins. I also take your point on robots and ship upgrades such as virtual crew computer programs.

If the crew requirement table shows the roles that are needed for a certain sized vessel shouldn't they be shown in the example ships crew section in a consistent way? The required crew table after all indicates (by my imperfect reading) that every space ship of 1000tons and lower must have at least 1 maintenance crew. If the crew section in the example ships are the typical crew of such ships shouldn't they indicate some crew are doing double duty such as engineer/maintenance and as such due to the increase pay? If the required position is only needed part time if it less than 1 and more than 0 then shouldn't the crew requirement table indicate that in a footnote that the position in such cases is part-time and need not recorded on the ship sheet.

Also by even your criteria the laboratory ship crew is messed up because it lacks an engineer. While a scientist could act as a part-time engineer/maintenance crew there is a possibility none of the required scientists have the required skills

 

[swordtart]

If the crew requirement table shows the roles that are needed for a certain sized vessel shouldn't they be shown in the example ships crew section in a consistent way? The required crew table after all indicates (by my imperfect reading) that every space ship of 1000tons and lower must have at least 1 maintenance crew. If the crew section in the example ships are the typical crew of such ships shouldn't they indicate some crew are doing double duty such as engineer/maintenance and as such due to the increase pay? If the required position is only needed part time if it less than 1 and more than 0 then shouldn't the crew requirement table indicate that in a footnote that the position in such cases is part-time and need not recorded on the ship sheet.

The crew description for example ships are a bit wonky and either should be consistent with the expected roles for that ship type (with maybe variations noted for specific mission profiles) or omitted entirely. There is a note at the start of the section on crew roles in the main rules explaining these are expected minimums, but I agree it could be clearer what "minimum" actually means.

Also by even your criteria the laboratory ship crew is messed up because it lacks an engineer. While a scientist could act as a part-time engineer/maintenance crew there is a possibility none of the required scientists have the required skills

Agreed.

 

[Shardan13]

I'm starting to suspect that the "crew requirement table" is the "strongly suggested crew requirement table" for adventure class ships.

Edit: Arkathan I realized "shown standard" could be read negatively. I meant that you have displayed a very high level of standard If I somehow implied it as negative I apologize.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Not really, there is rounding going on:


From the examples (mimicking older editions with different rules [LBB2]) we can see that Engineers and Stewards are rounded up, whereas Maintenance, Administrators, and SensOps are rounded down, at least under 1000 Dt of ship.

I tend to add Engineers and Maintenance crew before I round up.

One person can do several jobs, e.g. on small commercial ships the Pilot is often also the Captain. Part time such a tenth of an Administrator can probably safely be given to someone else, e.g. the Astrogator or Medic.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I'm starting to suspect that the "crew requirement table" is the "strongly suggested crew requirement table" for adventure class ships.

Yes, as the previous page makes clear:

SMALL STARSHIPS
Spacecraft in the hands of small-time traders or adventurers usually run with a bare minimum of crew, with personnel often fulfilling more than one role as situations demand. For example, it is common on a smaller ship for the pilot to also act as the astrogator, or a steward to have basic medical skills. This keeps the monthly salary bill low and increases what might otherwise be very slim profits.
Ships of less than 1,000 tons can, in theory, be run by just one or two multi-skilled people, but the ship will be at a serious disadvantage in high-stress situations such as combat.

You need people with the listed skills, but not necessarily all at once...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

The real reason is of course:

LBB2 1977, p19:
Free Trader (Type A): Using the type 200 hull, the free trader is equipped with ten staterooms (four for the crew: pilot, engineer, medic and steward; six for high and middle passengers) and twenty low passage berths.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Arkathan, I believe it was you who told me to roundup with the sensor ops. While it does say on pg 97 that the position can be part time the crew the crew determination table doesn't suggest this unless you round down otherwise a 7501 vessel suddenly needs 2 sensors ops.

You need them in combat, otherwise the Astrogator will do.

Even small ships might need several SensOps in combat...


The crew requirement comes from:

HG'22, p34:
Because of this, assume that a ship has one on-duty sensor operator for every full 7,500 tons. For example, a 75,000-ton ship would have 10 sensor operators on duty who could between them perform the Electronic Warfare action on 10 different incoming salvoes.

So, round down to get the minimum.

 

[Shardan13]

AnotherDilbert Thanks for the insight the crew requirement tables doesn't make it clear which to round up and which to round down. The sensor ops in the crew requirements table could be made clearer by adding full to its entry, they did it with officers after all.

I like the idea of adding engineering and maintenance together before rounding up. I take it you putting together in one entry in the ship crew?

And still the laboratory ship crew still makes no sense.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I like the idea of adding engineering and maintenance together before rounding up. I take it you putting together in one entry in the ship crew?

I add the crew into sections vaguely resembling LBB5 crew sections, here a Scout:

 

[AnotherDilbert]

And still the laboratory ship crew still makes no sense.

That is presumably just a typo?

HG'16 said:

Even here there should be two Engineers for 45 Dt drives.

 

[Shardan13]

AnotherDilbert Thanks that reduces the confusion. Also I think they are rounding the maintenance crew to the nearest number as the subsidized liner (600 tons) has 1 maintenance crew.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

AnotherDilbert Thanks that reduces the confusion. Also I think they are rounding the maintenance crew to the nearest number as the subsidized liner (600 tons) has 1 maintenance crew.

Yes, that rings a bell. Probably the same for Administrators?

Note that the requirements do include small craft crew, but that is generally omitted for just one or two craft.

 

[Shardan13]

AnotherDilbert Yes it appears the same for administrators as the merchant cruiser (1800 tons) has an administrator. Again the crew requirements table could have made that clearer.

 

[Condottiere]

Experience should indicate what's essential, and what's not, to the safe running of the spacecraft.

Then, you have separation into line and staff.

And finally, if regulations mandate that position needs to be filled.

 

[MongooseMatt]

as the subsidized liner (600 tons) has 1 maintenance crew.

We also take into account certain commercial entities pushing the limits in terms of profitability...

Actually, that crops up quite a bit

 

[Terry Mixon]

Sadly, Mongoose isn’t the best at checking that their designed ships have the required crew or that the math adds up for everything in them.