Hi Pop Worlds

[Gaidheal]

Ooh! The flames kept my smile warm for a few minutes of catching up. Incidentally, the official population figures for nations may be a bit useless... especially in the UK, to my personal knowledge. ;¬)

 

[Tobias]

What? My entire point was based around the UK having a population density of exactly 246 persons per km². And now you're telling me it might me as little as 242 persons per km² or - gasp - as many as 250? That shatters my convictions.

 

[rust]

That shatters my convictions.

Yep, that's why such data are sometimes called brute facts ... 8)

 

[Gaidheal]

LOL!

Don't be daft, also, tactical error there, I was 'on your side', remember? Friendly Fire, mayhaps? ;¬)

In all seriousness, the density is much higher in some parts of the UK and the overall population is reckoned to be quite a bit greater, in reality, than most official figures. I can count off a few people who are not on electoral rolls, for example, which is one measure often used for a 'quick and dirty' headcount. If you start looking into the numbers of people who are deliberately 'off-radar' for one reason or another, your estimate will likely go up quite a bit.

 

[rust]

If you start looking into the numbers of people who are deliberately 'off-radar' for one reason or another, your estimate will likely go up quite a bit.

It is quite similar over here, especially when you count illegal immigrants,
for example people who came here as students or tourists and somehow
forgot to return home.

 

[Tobias]

I was not being particularly serious at that point.

 

[EDG]

No, around an M star, or maybe a brown dwarf or other suitably dim object. But I'm gonna stop now. Thanks for proving me right, anyway.

He didn't. You were talking about a ringworld, not an Orbital/Halo. They are two different things - a ringworld has a planetary or stellar object at its centre, and an Orbital/Halo doesn't (it's a standalone object that orbits a planetary or stellar object).

I really don't know why you apparently insist on being so confrontational and aggressive about all this though. It's a discussion about some SF ideas, not a matter of honour.

 

[Tobias]

He didn't.

Oh yes he did. (Concerning my assertion that the original post was entirely in vain.)
And I'm not being confrontational. I'm just disillusioned.

 

[GypsyComet]

Knowing fandom, I'm sure the structural needs of a material like scrith have been dissected online somewhere. The need to have any size Ring react as a rigid body is paramount for stabilization, and while we don't know the engineering characteristics of Bonded Superdense, assuming that it can retain a rigid shape when cast as a 15,000-mile-diameter Halo ring is probably a bit much.

I... ah, forget it.

This board has two Earth Scientists (I'm a Geologist; I'm not sure what EDG's framed paperwork includes), a Geographer, a Biologist/mathematician, and probably an Engineer or two. We tend to over-analyze this stuff. Don't let it get to you.

From a purely TU point of view, the "modern" states don't appear to engage in macro-engineering beyond the occasional massive free-floating orbital station. Ringworld was published in 1970, so Miller, et al. had probably heard of it and/or read it when they were creating the OTU a decade later. Since the races of Charted Space don't engage in ringworld or halo building even at TL15, the conclusion is that their materials, while amazing by OUR standards, are still not up to the task. Blowing up planets (for raw materials and "workplace safety") appears to be firmly in the Ancient's realm.

As such, the Imperium doesn't because it can't. That makes those who can *very* interesting. Or scary. Probably both.

The Leenitakot ringworld in Hinterworlds Sector is fiercely isolated by its current owners, the Outcasts of the Whispering Sky. Odds are good that the Imperium *has* visited it regardless, and knows what ever they want to know about it. If it were really that useful, it would be Imperial territory now. Or Hiver territory. Or not. Appearing to ignore something can be very useful when you are being watched by the neighbors, after all.

Caveat: The OTU and YOUR GAME intersect only as much as YOU want them to. Feel free to ignore our reality checks.

He didn't.

Oh yes he did. (Concerning my assertion that the original post was entirely in vain.)
And I'm not being confrontational. I'm just disillusioned.

Had a feeling that was the case. See above.

 

[EDG]

I'm not sure what EDG's framed paperwork includes

Planetary science, astrophysics, and terrestrial geology/geophysics.

 

[rust]

I'm just disillusioned.

After about two years of attempting to design a plausible water world
and the technology required for a colony there, I am still sent back to
the drawing board about once a week by a comment of someone who
knows more about some subject I touched upon than I do. :wink:

 

[DCAnsell]

I'm just disillusioned.

After about two years of attempting to design a plausible water world
and the technology required for a colony there, I am still sent back to
the drawing board about once a week by a comment of someone who
knows more about some subject I touched upon than I do. :wink:

I like to see what the real scientist folks say. It does interest me. Unfortunately, I think it can be taken to obsessive extremes, and there is a point where I sort of draw a line and go with what I have, and if somebody has nothing better to do with their time then point and babble about its realism, they are cordially invited to run their own bit and leave mine be.

 

[Gaidheal]

Heh, DC.

I see where you're coming from but as I observed before, on another topic, if something is a blindlingly obvious flaw to a reader / player that will kill their suspension of disbelief and we all have different areas and thresholds that may even vary from genre to genre.

I get quite irritated with very silly gun stuff in modern TV (everlasting clips, very quiet and smokeless ammunition, 'one shot kill' small arms, 'knockback', etc, etc) whereas some of my friends simply don't even notice. I'm famously acerbic about 'lasers' which are visible and output 'bolts' with human observable trajectories and speeds. There's doubtless more... and yet I can swallow FTL travel and communication, alien sentients and truly vast spacecraft - all things which some of my friends rant about.

 

[aspqrz]

Oh, and what part of ... Which is, sorta, my point ... as I have noted elsewhere, demographic realities are such that if such high pop hellholes (and, regardless of tech, a planet with 40 billion pop would be a hellhole to a significant number of its citizens

The part where you give me an indication what percentage of the population is a "significant number".

I specified a "significant number" ... did I mention a percentage?

I don't think so.

If I had wanted to mention a percentage I would have.

You seem incapable of grasping this key fact.

I'm still waiting for that one.

Might I suggest you don't hold your breath? ... most people look funny turning purple, then black.

If you wish to define things, fine ... go argue with yourself, as you are obviously creating strawmen. If I had meant 25%, sonny, I'd have said as much ...

And by the way, I don't know who you are trying to fool: You used the term "high population hellhole". You know darn well how that sounds - something quite different from Japan, the UK, the Netherlands, Belgium etc. etc.

Well, I'll let you in on a secret, sonny-jim, yes, I know exactly how it sounds ... the problem is that you don't ... and, no, its not even remotely in the ballpark of what you downgrade it to ... the fact that you deliberately bring up strawman definitions that don't even work within the parameters is, well, really, your problem.

You're so good with strawmen, well ... you have my full permission to create as many as you want, but I am not going to respond to them as they are strawmen.

Have fun playing with yourself ... :roll:

Phil

 

[aspqrz]

Note that all of these countries have the same problem with low replacement rates

You do realize that this runs contrary to your own line of argument? You propose that the presence of a large population makes for a "hellhole". Not that a declining population, which is in fact the very opposite of what you say, makes for a "hellhole".

[/quote]

You do realise your statement shows that you simply don't have a clew as to what I said and have been saying?

My point is that HPHs are not likely to exist ... except in exceptional and, likely, extreme, circumstances ... as all the real world evidence we have is that population levels are self-limiting.

It is no surprise whatsoever that you have not grasped this ... too busy creating irrelevant strawmen, I guess :shock:

Phil

 

[aspqrz]

Perhaps it is time to look for a quiet discussion of Near C rocks.

i've always prefereed my NearC on the rocks with a gravitic twist - served with an umbrella, naturlich!

Philistine! :shock: :?

Everyone knows that it has to be served with a twist of lime! :roll: :wink:

Phil

 

[EDG]

Uh, can BOTH of you please ratchet back the sarcasm and personal attacks? If it's so clear that you're talking past eachother, perhaps it'd be better for everyone if you both stopped arguing and getting more and more frustrated at eachother? I can just see this thread turning more acrimonious otherwise.

Speaking from experience, the only thing that'll happen then is that the thread will be deleted, and then nobody's better off at all.

 

[aspqrz]

Uh, can BOTH of you please ratchet back the sarcasm and personal attacks? If it's so clear that you're talking past eachother

Done. I've said all that I have to say to the other guy ... he can continue but he'll be talking to himself if he does :wink: :wink: :wink:

Phil

 

[Tobias]

We tend to over-analyze this stuff.

If only you did. I'm disillusioned because you under-analyzed it, as this lengthy response again shows. I mean, why the heck are you trying to prove to me that ringworlds don't exist in the TU when my post essentially said:
"Nobody would build a ringworld in the TU even if we assumed the materials were strong enough because it would not make economic sense."

I'm not disillusioned in my grand designs about ringworlds - I'm disillusioned about making serious posts with content in them.

 

[EDG]

We tend to over-analyze this stuff.

If only you did. I'm disillusioned because you under-analyzed it, as this lengthy response again shows. I mean, why the heck are you trying to prove to me that ringworlds don't exist in the TU when my post essentially said:
"Nobody would build a ringworld in the TU even if we assumed the materials were strong enough because it would not make economic sense."

Speaking of "under-analyzing", why do you claim that he is trying to prove that ringworlds don't exist in the TU when he's clearly saying that there is one in the OTU (not built by the Imperium, but it's there nonetheless)?