Hi Pop Worlds

[EDG]

Some people seem to be forgetting that Traveller is Science Fiction, and space opera at that. If the world has a population of 50 billion, get creative on the plausible reasons for the why and how...

"Plausible" is a problematic word. If someone doesn't knows nothing or very little about a subject, anything sounds plausible to them if said by someone with an air of authority (who may or may not themselves actually know what they are talking about). If pepole are talking about plausibility here, then they should just decide what sounds right to them, and there's no reason to argue about it here because everyone's definition of plausibility will vary. e.g. some people may think that a size 1 world in the habitable zone with a dense breathable atmosphere that isn't being constantly maintained by active terraforming is plausible, and if it's pointed out that it needs a stupidly dense core to retain the atmosphere then that explanation may sound plausible to them too... but that doesn't change the fact that it's physically impossible to have a core that dense, and therefore that the world is unrealistic.

If we're talking about realism though, that's a different matter. finding realistic reasons for why 50 billion people are on a world requires research on how much food is required to sustain the population, how easy it is to get that to the population (i.e. infrastructure) and so on. Sure, people can throw historical facts and figures around, but I think that when they extrapolate those to a SF environment they can't really claim they're absolute fact anymore. But again, many assumptions have to be made along the way that people may or may not disagree on.

The point being, everyone's going to have their own definition of plausibility, and even different ideas on what is or should be realistic when talking about populations.

The term "Hellhole" is a value judgment, there's nothing absolute or factual about it, no more so than when my girlfriend says it's really hot today, and I argue with her for half an hour...because 20 degrees C ain't hot.

Exactly. Heck, when people talk about hellholes I usually think "extremely inhospitable environment" rather than anything to do with population.

 

[Tobias]

I just knew I wrote all the stuff about ringworlds and Dyson Spheres in vain...

 

[Tobias]

e.g. some people may think that a size 1 world in the habitable zone with a dense breathable atmosphere that isn't being constantly maintained by active terraforming is plausible,

Of course it's not plausible. You can't roll a 14 on 2d6.

 

[EDG]

e.g. some people may think that a size 1 world in the habitable zone with a dense breathable atmosphere that isn't being constantly maintained by active terraforming is plausible,

Of course it's not plausible. You can't roll a 14 on 2d6.

You miss my point completely, which was that "plausible" is not the same as "realistic".

(as for the atmosphere, whatever. Call it a standard one instead, I was just using it as an example, not something to be nitpicked about).

 

[GypsyComet]

With only one Canon ringworld in the OTU, and it unfinished (no landscaping or atmosphere), its a moot point for the OTU.

Dyson Swarms or Spheres are probably going to be undetected until someone jumps into what they think is an empty hex, well off of the travelled routes (since one nearby would have been found by densitometer astronomy). The fun way to drag an exploration-minded group out into the *real* boonies is to have some apparent whackjob of a scientist charter them for a mission out to the location of a star that just... disappeared. Of course, that's 500 lights beyond Imperial space...

Both constructs, if capable of supporting "life as we know it", are setting breakers. Quite aside from the wars that would be fought over them, the sheer space available would break interstellar land ownership models. Why struggle to maintain a few acres when you and every other member of your species can have enough land to never see your neighbors, and not even make a tiny dent in the available space, and that's just on a ringworld.

Amusingly, this does have the potential to explain the apparent absence of other grand species between Grandfather and the Imperiums. There's a Dyson Swarm out near the Rim, and once a nearby cluster of intelligences finds it, they ALL head for it, empires and all, leaving only ruins for the next cycle to find...

 

[Tobias]

You miss my point completely, which was that "plausible" is not the same as "realistic".

I also knew that I should have appended one of those digital clown masks aka smilies.

 

[EDG]

With only one Canon ringworld in the OTU, and it unfinished (no landscaping or atmosphere), its a moot point for the OTU.

There's also the unfinished Inheritor dyson sphere way out in Nooq subsector (in the GT:AR Hiver book, but outside Hiver space on the trailing edge of the Charted Space map). Which I love, because it's a dyson sphere that has an atmosphere that is breathable for the Inheritors, but completely insidious to everyone else.

 

[Tobias]

Both constructs, if capable of supporting "life as we know it", are setting breakers.

Why the hell would a Dyson sphere in the form of a Dyson swarm be a setting breaker? Any advanced civilization could be in the process of building one - or several.
Likewise the small Ringworld I proposed. Interstellar wars between 10000-world empires breaking out over the equivalent of 8-10 worlds? Why?

 

[rust]

Interstellar wars between 10000-world empires breaking out over the equivalent of 8-10 worlds? Why?

While I also doubt that the surface area would be a sufficient reason for
a war, I could well imagine that the technology used to build the con-
struct could be considered valuable enough to start a war - just think
what a material like the Scrith of Niven's Ringworld could mean for the
first one able to use it as starship armour.

 

[Tobias]

While I also doubt that the surface area would be a sufficient reason for a war, I could well imagine that the technology used to build the construct could be considered valuable enough to start a war - just think
what a material like the Scrith of Niven's Ringworld could mean for the
first one able to use it as starship armour.

One of the very points I made in the original post (in vain... as I said) was that by virtue of being a lot smaller than Niven's ringworld, it would not need Scrith. In fact, I assumed ordinary bonded superdense, which is available to all major interstellar powers of the OTU...

And that is for the ringworld. For the more practical Dyson Sphere you would use rocks floating around in the system.

 

[rust]

In fact, I assumed ordinary bonded superdense, which is available to all major interstellar powers of the OTU...

I did read that, I just do not believe that bonded superdense would be
a sufficiently strong material.

 

[GypsyComet]

Both constructs, if capable of supporting "life as we know it", are setting breakers.

Why the hell would a Dyson sphere in the form of a Dyson swarm be a setting breaker? Any advanced civilization could be in the process of building one - or several.
Likewise the small Ringworld I proposed. Interstellar wars between 10000-world empires breaking out over the equivalent of 8-10 worlds? Why?

If its only the land area equivalent of 8-10 planets it isn't really a ringworld. That's more of a Halo around a normal planet. Even one around a gas giant is going to have a LOT of space if its the same width as the diameter of the moons it replaces. A one-mile-wide Ring around a dim little star with habitable insolation at 0.1 AU has ~30 million square miles of space. At 6 miles wide it has the surface area of Earth. Are you stopping at 60 miles wide? Seems like a waste. Amusing, but a waste.

Dyson swarm plates that only total 10 Earths do not qualify as a swarm. If you aren't taking in at least 20% of your star's radiant energy, Dyson won't return your calls.

As for the wars, that's easy. That scale of macro engineering and the materials involved WILL attract the attention of every major power within reach. Why build one when you can steal one? Just the implied ability to sweep a system clean of all other bodies (necessary for a true ringworld) will have everyone and their cousin warring for the ability to search the ring for the superweapons that can do that.

 

[Tobias]

If its only the land area equivalent of 8-10 planets it isn't really a ringworld. That's more of a Halo around a normal planet.

No, around an M star, or maybe a brown dwarf or other suitably dim object. But I'm gonna stop now. Thanks for proving me right, anyway.

 

[GypsyComet]

With only one Canon ringworld in the OTU, and it unfinished (no landscaping or atmosphere), its a moot point for the OTU.

There's also the unfinished Inheritor dyson sphere way out in Nooq subsector (in the GT:AR Hiver book, but outside Hiver space on the trailing edge of the Charted Space map). Which I love, because it's a dyson sphere that has an atmosphere that is breathable for the Inheritors, but completely insidious to everyone else.

I believe they're another Spacemaster import, like a lot of the new aliens in G:T, so no, thanks.

If its only the land area equivalent of 8-10 planets it isn't really a ringworld. That's more of a Halo around a normal planet.

No, around an M star, or maybe a brown dwarf or other suitably dim object. But I'm gonna stop now. Thanks for proving me right, anyway.

Still worth fighting over, depending on its location. That kind of "facility" turns a forgettable brown dwarf into legitimate real estate. The war might be more local over something that size, though.

Something in the Halo range won't have the technology issue to the same extent, though building one around even a brown dwarf is an engineering feat, since halos usually start anchored, as a series of beanstalks.

 

[Tobias]

I did read that, I just do not believe that bonded superdense would be a sufficiently strong material.

Why not? As you could see, I proposed a really small ringworld around a really small star.
(And if it did use a scrith-like substance, I would question the wisdom of going to war with a civilization possessing that material, unless you possessed it yourself, which would make the point moot...)

 

[Mithras]

I'm indebted to the folks who responded, I really have created a great MTU of the Spinward Marches using some of the advice here.

I'm surprised at the vorciferous level of debate on the subject by some, however. I love the science behind the mechanics, and I ask questions because I know that many on the board are experts (ie. self-taught or graduate).

It does disturb me that positions on wholly SF or theoretical premises can be held and defended with such aggressive energy.

On the COTI boards, there is a well-trafficked board called 'In My Traveller Universe' and in MY opinion, all Traveller boards should be run under the umbrella of IMTU. That board has no flamewars, because it's GM driven. Your point is valid for your TU.

I like to think we are here for a common purpose, which is primarily to a) share the fun, and b) to show off a bit.

Old scores, past histories, vendettas, wronged rights - that I know nothing about, care nothing about, though I recognize that certain names will quite quickly receive extreme criticism from other 'certain names'. I won't mention names here.

But I'm a naive farmboy who asks questions, plays games, and holds no position. Especially not on the ephemeral and ever-changing toilet-wall we call the Internet.

Good-gaming to you all!

 

[rust]

Why not?

The only "hard" information I have on the strength of bonded superdense
is the armour table in the ship design chapter of the Mongoose Traveller
core rulebook.

According to that table, bonded superdense has an armour value of only
three times that of a titanium alloy. Armour value and strength are not
identical, but in most cases they are at least closely related, so I think
that bonded superdense will only be about three times as strong as a ti-
tanium alloy.

Well, and a material that strong will hardly be sufficient to build even a
relatively small ringworld, I think.

As for the civilization, I do not remember that you did mention a ring-
world currently still inhabited by its creators - such a species with its
technology would change the OTU quite a bit, I think.

 

[Tobias]

As for the civilization, I do not remember that you did mention a ring-world currently still inhabited by its creators

... :x

 

[GypsyComet]

(And if it did use a scrith-like substance, I would question the wisdom of going to war with a civilization possessing that material, unless you possessed it yourself, which would make the point moot...)

Depends on who owns the ring, and whether or not you (this is the Imperial You, by the way) think they "own" the tech to build it, or are just squatters.

The Fifth Frontier War featured a large and nasty battle over a deep space refueling depot created by the Zhodani to bridge into the Imperium without being seen at known gas giants.

Now think about what that sort of position would be like if you, as the threatened polity, *can't* destroy the depot.

...

In any case, the Hi population discussion seems to have descended into semantics and dirt-clod throwing, the presence of ringworlds and Dyson structures is firmly in the "Special Case" category as already mentioned (ie. placed, not rolled), and humor seems to have departed.

Knowing fandom, I'm sure the structural needs of a material like scrith have been dissected online somewhere. The need to have any size Ring react as a rigid body is paramount for stabilization, and while we don't know the engineering characteristics of Bonded Superdense, assuming that it can retain a rigid shape when cast as a 15,000-mile-diameter Halo ring is probably a bit much.

 

[Tobias]

Knowing fandom, I'm sure the structural needs of a material like scrith have been dissected online somewhere. The need to have any size Ring react as a rigid body is paramount for stabilization, and while we don't know the engineering characteristics of Bonded Superdense, assuming that it can retain a rigid shape when cast as a 15,000-mile-diameter Halo ring is probably a bit much.

I... ah, forget it.