Hermes missile debate poll

[katadder]

Couple of comments to Joe up a bit defending the hermes...

The hermes has interceptors helping defend it...much more reliable than the dodge of 5+ against the right kinds of weapons. And the flight of T-bolts it carries is hardly something to gloss over when you say it has no other weapons. And the Sho'Kov has LESS additional weaponry (only 4 to the hermes 14 AD) than the hermes, and lacks the anti-fighter trait on the those. They are turreted...but unless being attacked from behind the hermes is superior in firepower output.

The group I'm in plays differently than a lot of what we hear out of the playtest folks. Our input should be seen as an additional resource, not something to be debunked as non-credible. We have as much a vested interest in this being a good long running game as any other group. The Sag debacle was not discovered by the playtest crowd but by the tourney crowd, the one off players who push for most advantage rather than feel of the game or what 'my' fleet should feel like. We regularly play each others fleets to make sure we're not just looking at it from the wrong perspective.

Anyway, we have played for months now with the large hermes stack, and its beatable...but its much more hardcore than we expected, and much better than any other patrol ships we've tried bar the Vree (good up to about 3...) or the Corvan (same diminishing returns issue). We did not post once about it until the feeling was confirmed by two other groups in our area that played against it.

The comments on the flash missle were arrived at in the same way, as the olympus has proven to be much nastier than we originally gave it credit for, and that can be squarely laid at the feet of the flash missle. we used to consider the rail hyperion a real coin toss with the olypmus until we saw what the concentrated missile barrages could do. As a rule we don't take sag's, we feel our initial tests proved out the issues with them and useing them tainted every other test we did, but I'm willing to bet they are not nearly as nasty relying on regular missiles.

anyway...people being dismissive of groups outside the sacred confines g of the playtesters gets me pissy...no take the above rant personally if you bothered to read it...

Ripple - wonder if I can get official curmudgeon status...

they have added more playtesters since armageddon though to help find things like the sagi etc. we are tourney players (and winners) as well so we know what to look for.
thoughts are not dismissed from the forums, in fact when things get mentioned on the forums alot they can be taken back to the playtest group and discussed how to sort out. dont assume you are dismissed out of hand, alot of thoughts from the forums do go up the chain.

 

[Joe_Dracos]

Okay, let me get this straight. Your adding all of the AD together on the hermes (dispite its clearly in seperate arcs) and saying that because you can add up its AD to large numbers it deserves a nerfing? This seems like an arguement that isn't well thought out. It also isn't fair since the Hermes will never be able to bring 14 AD to bere on single ship. If we're going to start knocking a ship for its total AD, lets take a look at the Bin'Tak, or the Teshlan.

I'm not even going to start on the fighter comment.

As far as the vorlons are concearned, I can beat there ships without missiles using superior numbers. When you are capable of dealing 1-12 damage a turn to a ship the fact that it has 75-300 damage becomes meaningless. I'd say the problem lies with the way damage is dealt to them and not with the hermes.

The average roll on a hermes carrying flash missiles (assuming you hit with every missile) is 7 (two dice rolling damage) then doubled to 14. The fact that you did so much damage tells me you rolled high.

We playtesters all listen to what is being said on the boards. So if there is something that a lot of players think need fixing, we will do our best to get it fixed in 2e.

This comment here was the basis of what I said about playtesters. As a play tester, you should take an unbiased veiw to a problem. Not decide right away that it needs "fixing".

I'm also not defending the Hermes, just finding the arguement incredibly weak.

You want a fix? Try, it only has externally mounted missiles on the model, why not make it 2 shot?

 

[marsa10]

The average roll on a hermes carrying flash missiles (assuming you hit with every missile) is 7 (two dice rolling damage) then doubled to 14. The fact that you did so much damage tells me you rolled high.

You have not included precise in your calculations average is 9 doubled 18 WITHOUT the chance of the crit.

This comment here was the basis of what I said about playtesters. As a play tester, you should take an unbiased veiw to a problem. Not decide right away that it needs "fixing".

But if the player base represented by the forums highlights something it should be looked at (100% behind you on the unbiased bit).

 

[prelude_to_war]

You want a fix? Try, it only has externally mounted missiles on the model, why not make it 2 shot?

I like this idea; 2AD of slow-loading twice, then it's done...

Feels fluffy in that with its speed, the Hermes would shoot a couple of times to punch a hole in a blockade or whatever, then zip through in order to deliver the supplies it was carrying.

This would bring it in line I think with other Patrol hulls (like the Sho'Kov) since its premium weapon is now finite, versus lesser powered weapons which can be used endlessly.

 

[Ripple]

To the playtesters...I know you guys have a larger crowd and several tourney types as well as RP types and campaign types. I think the current group has a good breadth of play styles, my comments were not directed at you.

To Joe - Yes I added all the AD together, because if a fighter group were to try and destroy you a good number of those would be viable. But that is beside the point, you made the claim that the Narn hull had 'something to back up its 1 AD of missiles', I went searching for whatever you could have ment. Not AD certainly, as the Hermes has superior AD in all but the rear arc, not defense really as the interceptor is superior except against beam (much more likely to catch the first two hits) and certainly not fighter support as the hermes has it and the Sho'Kov doesn't. So what exactly did you mean?

Did you mean something about the main gun...the hermes has greater AD, range and versatility.

You declined to talk about the fighter, apparently you still haven't learned to use a stack of T-Bolts...instrumental in an EA victory over the Dilgar in the last local tourney around here. Where did the majority of that stack come from...Hermes. Admittedly, against many raid and higher PL choices fighter flights become somewhat weak, but in a skirmish game or against skirmish hulls five to ten flights are very dangerous. Even if they only fire once, that's four more AD that just shot and didn't cost you a thing.

I didn't call for a change to the Hermes, I said I didn't know whether it really warranted it. I did give my observation of the balance between the various patrol hulls and the Hermes. That seems a valid area for player comment. If your comment is that regular players shouldn't call for changes in balance, and should leave it to the playtesters...well let me pull out my unaltered Sag fleet and get back to the good ole days...playtesters told us they was just fine.

Ripple

 

[Ripple]

I will curtail my comments now...that whole being too grumpy in public...must keep the dark side hidden under the bridge.

Ripple

 

[Davesaint]

Okay, let me get this straight. Your adding all of the AD together on the hermes (dispite its clearly in seperate arcs) and saying that because you can add up its AD to large numbers it deserves a nerfing? This seems like an arguement that isn't well thought out. It also isn't fair since the Hermes will never be able to bring 14 AD to bere on single ship. If we're going to start knocking a ship for its total AD, lets take a look at the Bin'Tak, or the Teshlan.

I'm not even going to start on the fighter comment.

As far as the vorlons are concearned, I can beat there ships without missiles using superior numbers. When you are capable of dealing 1-12 damage a turn to a ship the fact that it has 75-300 damage becomes meaningless. I'd say the problem lies with the way damage is dealt to them and not with the hermes.

The average roll on a hermes carrying flash missiles (assuming you hit with every missile) is 7 (two dice rolling damage) then doubled to 14. The fact that you did so much damage tells me you rolled high.

We playtesters all listen to what is being said on the boards. So if there is something that a lot of players think need fixing, we will do our best to get it fixed in 2e.

This comment here was the basis of what I said about playtesters. As a play tester, you should take an unbiased veiw to a problem. Not decide right away that it needs "fixing".

I'm also not defending the Hermes, just finding the arguement incredibly weak.

You want a fix? Try, it only has externally mounted missiles on the model, why not make it 2 shot?

I managed to get 16 AD of missiles on one ship last Saturday. It's a forward arc weapon. If you deploy the ships in a line or even in 2 lines and draw the 30 " forward arc across the table, It's not all that hard, especially if you don't CAF and get your re-rolls from a scout. I play on a 4X6 foot standard table and I haven't had an issue with this yet.


Dave

 

[Joe_Dracos]

To Joe - Yes I added all the AD together, because if a fighter group were to try and destroy you a good number of those would be viable. But that is beside the point, you made the claim that the Narn hull had 'something to back up its 1 AD of missiles', I went searching for whatever you could have ment. Not AD certainly, as the Hermes has superior AD in all but the rear arc, not defense really as the interceptor is superior except against beam (much more likely to catch the first two hits) and certainly not fighter support as the hermes has it and the Sho'Kov doesn't. So what exactly did you mean?

Did you mean something about the main gun...the hermes has greater AD, range and versatility.

You declined to talk about the fighter, apparently you still haven't learned to use a stack of T-Bolts...instrumental in an EA victory over the Dilgar in the last local tourney around here. Where did the majority of that stack come from...Hermes. Admittedly, against many raid and higher PL choices fighter flights become somewhat weak, but in a skirmish game or against skirmish hulls five to ten flights are very dangerous. Even if they only fire once, that's four more AD that just shot and didn't cost you a thing.

I didn't call for a change to the Hermes, I said I didn't know whether it really warranted it. I did give my observation of the balance between the various patrol hulls and the Hermes. That seems a valid area for player comment. If your comment is that regular players shouldn't call for changes in balance, and should leave it to the playtesters...well let me pull out my unaltered Sag fleet and get back to the good ole days...playtesters told us they was just fine.

Ripple

Well, fighters don't seem to be a winning factor in most games I play. I have sailed through fighter swarms with very little or no fighter support of my own. I rely on my pulse cannons and particle beams (if any) to kill fighters. If I'm particularily worried I will take a sagg loaded with anti fighter missiles.

My T-bolts tend to slightly (and very slightly) over kill there target with a well placed critical hit. Then the ship has a tendancy to explode from time to time killing them. They have rarely made a difference otherwise. If hermes transports are being deployed by your EA opponent at Raid, use energy mines, or Nuetron lasers, or battle lasers....

I really can't understand why people are having difficulty with large groups of these plate glass windows.

 

[pwrserge]

Ok, I would like to point out that the Hermes is nowhere near as tougth or as nasty as the posts here tend to make it out to be.

Let's take a simple close PL comparison. (not same PL, but within 2)
Are two Hermes really a match for a Heavy Raider? (Close, but no)
Are three Hermes really a match for a White Star? (No way, no how.)
Are three Hermes really a match for a Teshlan? (HA!)
Are two Hermes really a match for a G'Karith or a G'Sten? (Seems close, again...)
Are three Hermes really a match to a Centurion or Prefect? (Nope, not with DD SAP Beams)

Let's face it, in all these matches the Hermes are going down in flames. Not without doing some damage mind you, but still dead. The fighters may be an annoyance for a turn or two (except against the Minbari). Let's not forget that for all the nastiness of the Flash missile, it can only fire every other turn. Is a Hermes all that likely to live long enough to get off a second shot?

Overall, they are a great patrol choice. I will admit that they make great support ships or raiders. But unless you have a solid main battle line to distract your enemy. (Hard to do if you take a lot of these little buggers.) Your transport fleet will get vaporized before you know.

For all the grumbling about EA missiles and fighters, people forget that almost every other race has much better main combatants. Missiles and fighters are their "thing". Without both, the list will be mediocre at best.

NOTE: The above comment only applies to Early and Third Age EA, I have not played Crusade (nor do I particularly want to).

SERGE

 

[Davesaint]

Ok, I would like to point out that the Hermes is nowhere near as tougth or as nasty as the posts here tend to make it out to be.

Let's take a simple close PL comparison. (not same PL, but within 2)
Are two Hermes really a match for a Heavy Raider? (Close, but no)
Are three Hermes really a match for a White Star? (No way, no how.)
Are three Hermes really a match for a Teshlan? (HA!)
Are two Hermes really a match for a G'Karith or a G'Sten? (Seems close, again...)
Are three Hermes really a match to a Centurion or Prefect? (Nope, not with DD SAP Beams)

Let's face it, in all these matches the Hermes are going down in flames. Not without doing some damage mind you, but still dead. The fighters may be an annoyance for a turn or two (except against the Minbari). Let's not forget that for all the nastiness of the Flash missile, it can only fire every other turn. Is a Hermes all that likely to live long enough to get off a second shot?

Overall, they are a great patrol choice. I will admit that they make great support ships or raiders. But unless you have a solid main battle line to distract your enemy. (Hard to do if you take a lot of these little buggers.) Your transport fleet will get vaporized before you know.

For all the grumbling about EA missiles and fighters, people forget that almost every other race has much better main combatants. Missiles and fighters are their "thing". Without both, the list will be mediocre at best.

NOTE: The above comment only applies to Early and Third Age EA, I have not played Crusade (nor do I particularly want to).

SERGE

Serge -

The 2 hermes have a much better chance against the heavy raider than you think. Criticals ignore the GEG, and 1/3 of your hits are going to be crits. Plus the range on the gun for the HR is pretty short, so by the time the Drakh ship gets in range of the Hermes, the hermes will be able to move out of arc of the HR.

Can 3 hermes beat a White Star, maybe. It all depends on how well the whitestar dodges. If the WS gets to fire first against the hermes with it's beam, the hermes is in trouble. The 3 t-bolts that the Hermes will be carrying will be a big deal.

3 Hermes against a Teshlan, can be done. I killed a teshlan last weekend with 3 hermes. Made all 3 stealth rolls Hit with 4 missles and had 2 good crits and he was dead

2 Hemes against a G'karith or Gsten = Dead Narn

3 Hermes against a Prefect - Likely dead Hermes, against a Centurian, maybe not. Against a Sullust = Dead Hermes.


Dave

 

[Joe_Dracos]

Serge -

The 2 hermes have a much better chance against the heavy raider than you think. Criticals ignore the GEG, and 1/3 of your hits are going to be crits. Plus the range on the gun for the HR is pretty short, so by the time the Drakh ship gets in range of the Hermes, the hermes will be able to move out of arc of the HR.

Can 3 hermes beat a White Star, maybe. It all depends on how well the whitestar dodges. If the WS gets to fire first against the hermes with it's beam, the hermes is in trouble. The 3 t-bolts that the Hermes will be carrying will be a big deal.

3 Hermes against a Teshlan, can be done. I killed a teshlan last weekend with 3 hermes. Made all 3 stealth rolls Hit with 4 missles and had 2 good crits and he was dead

2 Hemes against a G'karith or Gsten = Dead Narn

3 Hermes against a Prefect - Likely dead Hermes, against a Centurian, maybe not. Against a Sullust = Dead Hermes.


Dave

First off, what pwrsarge wrote was the most level headed thing I have read on this thread to date. Everything he wrote makes sense.

Next, maybe a dead whitestar? Unless those Hermes are carrying AF missiles half the number of hits will be misses, then half the damage will get deducted. The whitestar gets an initiative advantage. If it doesn't win initiative it soaks up the 2 or 3 damage and then blows a Hermes out of the sky... and one that hasn't fired. Those figthers, well they have movement advantage, but the white star heads out of range and then spins around to pick them off with its Melecular pulsar. The Whitestar will only take 1 (moves 22.5", yay all power to engines) turn of firing before getting on the aft arc of the Hermes (those 2 90 degree turns are a killer). Sounds like the Hermes is in a disadvantagious situation.

A Teshlan is in a similar possition as the white star, just not as manouverable. However the Teshlan does not need to turn around completely, only just to retain its weapons range. It kills one Hermes before it moves out of arc. If the Minbari player is smart he will have gotten hits on the other two as well.

A G'Karith has energy mines... these spell doom not only for the Hermes, but the Hermes fighter squadrons as well. If you don't spread your ships out you'll loose them en-mass. Your missiles fire, 4 shots, 3 hits, 1 crit, likely will reduce speed or effect special actions. lets be generous and say that you get 10 damage. The Energy mines return fire dealing 2 damage to one Hermes (unless your sucidal and have clustered your ships). Next turn the crit is repaired (maybe) and 2 more damage has been dealt. The next turn the G'karith is in range for its primary battery. It will take less damage (The narn "should" have initiative)lets be generous and say 2 damage but no crits. It pounds one to death with its forward cannon and Energy mines. The next turn it moves into arc with the other Hermes. It "Should" be within 10" of this ship too, but lets be generous and say no. The other hermes takes 2 damage from energy mines. Next turn (we'll be generous again and say the EA has Initiative) and deals out 2 more damage. Now though the G'Karith is in range with its main battery. The Hermes is very dead. Every 3rd hit from the Hermes was a critical. they never did get 6 hits. The fighters are a different story. The Narn will likely take a Gorith for its +1 dog fight, which means that if the T-bolts don't ignore it they would have an even fight. it would be a coin toss as to who would win.

 

[Target]

The White Star one is all up to luck, unfortunately it's Pulsars aren't goinig to do much to the Hermes with it's interceptors & only 4 AD, AP. A stupid crew crit & the Whitestar is in trouble. But it shows that the Hermes isn't overpowered, it's just a pretty good patrol ship which becomes better when in a fleet like the Corvan. The problem people are having is the Flash being fired at them at range 30" on CAF then doing DD crits on them. My Centauri fleet is lucky being range 25" & able to take interceptor carrying ships, other races i can see this becoming a little annoying.

 

[Joe_Dracos]

Theres ways to counter the Hermes, you just need to find them. Its nice to see that you have realized the full potential of your fleet.

 

[Davesaint]

Serge -

The 2 hermes have a much better chance against the heavy raider than you think. Criticals ignore the GEG, and 1/3 of your hits are going to be crits. Plus the range on the gun for the HR is pretty short, so by the time the Drakh ship gets in range of the Hermes, the hermes will be able to move out of arc of the HR.

Can 3 hermes beat a White Star, maybe. It all depends on how well the whitestar dodges. If the WS gets to fire first against the hermes with it's beam, the hermes is in trouble. The 3 t-bolts that the Hermes will be carrying will be a big deal.

3 Hermes against a Teshlan, can be done. I killed a teshlan last weekend with 3 hermes. Made all 3 stealth rolls Hit with 4 missles and had 2 good crits and he was dead

2 Hemes against a G'karith or Gsten = Dead Narn

3 Hermes against a Prefect - Likely dead Hermes, against a Centurian, maybe not. Against a Sullust = Dead Hermes.


Dave

First off, what pwrsarge wrote was the most level headed thing I have read on this thread to date. Everything he wrote makes sense.

Next, maybe a dead whitestar? Unless those Hermes are carrying AF missiles half the number of hits will be misses, then half the damage will get deducted. The whitestar gets an initiative advantage. If it doesn't win initiative it soaks up the 2 or 3 damage and then blows a Hermes out of the sky... and one that hasn't fired. Those figthers, well they have movement advantage, but the white star heads out of range and then spins around to pick them off with its Melecular pulsar. The Whitestar will only take 1 (moves 22.5", yay all power to engines) turn of firing before getting on the aft arc of the Hermes (those 2 90 degree turns are a killer). Sounds like the Hermes is in a disadvantagious situation.

A Teshlan is in a similar possition as the white star, just not as manouverable. However the Teshlan does not need to turn around completely, only just to retain its weapons range. It kills one Hermes before it moves out of arc. If the Minbari player is smart he will have gotten hits on the other two as well.

A G'Karith has energy mines... these spell doom not only for the Hermes, but the Hermes fighter squadrons as well. If you don't spread your ships out you'll loose them en-mass. Your missiles fire, 4 shots, 3 hits, 1 crit, likely will reduce speed or effect special actions. lets be generous and say that you get 10 damage. The Energy mines return fire dealing 2 damage to one Hermes (unless your sucidal and have clustered your ships). Next turn the crit is repaired (maybe) and 2 more damage has been dealt. The next turn the G'karith is in range for its primary battery. It will take less damage (The narn "should" have initiative)lets be generous and say 2 damage but no crits. It pounds one to death with its forward cannon and Energy mines. The next turn it moves into arc with the other Hermes. It "Should" be within 10" of this ship too, but lets be generous and say no. The other hermes takes 2 damage from energy mines. Next turn (we'll be generous again and say the EA has Initiative) and deals out 2 more damage. Now though the G'Karith is in range with its main battery. The Hermes is very dead. Every 3rd hit from the Hermes was a critical. they never did get 6 hits. The fighters are a different story. The Narn will likely take a Gorith for its +1 dog fight, which means that if the T-bolts don't ignore it they would have an even fight. it would be a coin toss as to who would win.

Ok, lets start this analysis from the Narn Up.

G'Karith -
Has 4 AD of Energy Mines, Range 20, 10 AD Pulse Cannon Forward, 4 AD of Pulse Cannon Aft, and 4 AD of Aft Energy Mines. It's Speed 8 with 2 45's 24/4 for Damage, and 28/5 for crew. It has 1 Frazi/Gorith

Hermes -
Range 30 AD Missles - Flash - AP, DD, Precise - Forward
Range 5 Forward - 6 AD AF Weak
Range 5 P/S 4 AD AF Weak
Interceptor 1
10/3, 12/3 repectively and speed 12 with 2/45's

If we are considering this a 3rd age Hermes you are +2 init. If it's crusade you are +1

The gorith, since I will have a 2-1 figher scenario will be down one for the dogfight.

Annaliation scenario - start 36" apart - You move 12(apte) or 8 with CBD. The hermes all stops. This leaves you at range 26 to me if you CBD(no e-mines for you) or range 22 - if you want your e-mines. You will do 2 points. I will roll 4 ad needing 3's I will hit with 2-3 doing 4-6 with the poss. of a crit.
Next turn. you try to close range to get those 10 AD in arc. I try to hang out on your sides adding 8-12 AD of AF Weak at you. So I need 5's to hit, big deal. I'll get another 2-3 points there. By this time my T-bolts have likely finished off your gorith and whatever is left can join the fray. BTW, you will have the chioice on turn 1 to shoot either my t-bolts or my hermes, not both. As you have just 4 AD to your sides, you will average hit with 2 and my interceptors will take care of that.

Next turn - either come about to pound you again, or APTE to get out of range and start again.

This battle is even worse for the G'sten

Against a Whitestar - It all comes down to dice. Can he dodge? Can I get a crit, and can he hit with his beam. If he rolls bad on his dodge, or if he rolls bad on his beam, Huzzah


Against a Teshlan - Again, it matters if you make your stealth rolls. His beam is only Range 20. In battles such as space superiority, you can arrange it so that you get a long range shot, and he doesn't It's all down to luck

The thing that you aren't looking at is that the hermes aren't going to be running forward full steam ahead saying kill me now. Good tactics make this ship outstanding

Dave

 

[pwrserge]

Dave, I see a lot of variables in your reply. For purposes of analyses like this one you need to take luck out of the equation. Thus, assume an average die roll distribution. Also, you need to leave crits out of the equation; they are just too difficult to model accurately using probability theory.

Let's take the WS example.

On average, the WS player will win Init. That means that you must move a Hermes first, thus presenting a perfect stationary target for the speed 15 WS to focus on with its Improved Neutron Laser. Given that on average that laser can expect at least 2-3 hits against hull 4 targets from the laser and 2-3 hits from the pulsars. Oh and let's not forget to fire the pulsars second so that if the Laser cripples you the Pulsars will finish you off. If the WS gets 3 hits with the laser and one of the pulsar hits leaks through, that's a dead Hermes that does not even get to fire.

Let's give the WS a slight statistical edge and say that it takes out the Hermes it targeted. That leaves two of the Hermes to salvo flash missiles. Given that they are AP and not SAP, they will get 2 hits on average. On average the WS will dodge one of those, and will take 1 point of hull and crew. Barring a serious critical (highly unlikely given only a single probable hit) the WS now has a "Free turn" to gut another Hermes this is especially true as their secondaries do not seriously concern a Hull 5 Adaptive Armor ship.

Turn 3 will see the White Star take another pair of Flash Missiles (worst case) and then vaporize the last Hermes. Never underestimate 15' move and 2x90 turns.

Don't get me started on the fighter issue. A ranger Nial flight is more than a match for 3 flights of Thunderbolts.

Oh and your Narn simulation assumes that the Narn player is an idiot. Anyone would use their fighter as bait in order to short charge your fighters out of existence. At that point, you are in serious trouble as you now have a mostly intact Narn ship in gun range of your Hermes. Oh, and let's not forget APTE, it has a great tendency to get people into range of you when you are not expecting it. Something I would do at the drop of a hat against a Hermes with its utter lack of decent close range weaponry.

But back on topic. Everyone keeps analyzing the Hermes in a vacuum. That is simply a very STUPID thing to do. No ship is an island. In the EA list, the Hermes is a great support ship. However, it is only this great support vessel that let's EA get away with it's frankly sub standard main combatants (Omegas anyone?).

SERGE

 

[Ripple]

Okay pwserge lets talk about how silly YOUR analysis of the fight is...

First you cannot take crits out of this analysis, we are dealing with precise weapons and a ship that is particularly vulnerable to crits (the WS cannot lose an arc, and AD, be stopped, take a large crew crit...ie about half the crit table takes the WS out of the fight for at least a turn, a good crit kills a hermes, but that's a third of the firepower we're dealing with)

Second, you assume the whitestar can reach the hermes you move first easily, but then fail to assume the resulting moves from the other hermes put them in range to use their AF guns on it...or that they can CAF. Why?

If the WS had to All Power to reach pulsar range of the likely All Stopped first Hermes that means its in range to be affected by the three T-bolts and out of range of support from its own Nial. Did I miss something here?

I agree that you cannot look at this ship in a vacumn, but ignoring that it often fixes all the supposed downsides of the mainline ships is just as silly.

Consider Patrol level scenarios...EA has a strong advantage here.
Consider Skirmish...again we see a strong advantage due to the T-bolt here
Raid...EA buys down and enhances its firepower while taking their mainline ship the Hyperion and removing a large part of its weakness. (ie you squadron all your Hyperion, meaning all of them fire in the second firing option...usually means most if not all survive to fire at least for a couple of turns...relying on your excellent fire support platform to provide sinks and expendable threats that require real weapons to kill. Most of your opponents will have trouble doing the same to you as they cannot buy as deep in the PL chart.)
Battle..again...you use Omegas here?...you buy down to give your Hyps the best possible shot...or take a pair of omega and buy down everythign else...again fixing your initiative issue as most races cannot effectively buy deep and get much out of it.
War and up these little guys start to squadron up themselves becoming harder to kill Sags as you have to target one after another, cutting through the intercptors multiple times...oh and the T-bolts are now swarming ships...

Having an outstanding ship you can buy down to is a big advantage in a game where you can sink out initiative. If I have a substandard ship I can easily push right back into being a decent or great ship (hyperion/omega) while retaining all my advantages at the lower levels I have gained an edge I did not pay for, that's called a balance issue. We may disagree on whether it significant enough to warrant a change, but to say that the advantage isn't there because I have another ship that is somehow weak just leads to me buying more of the advantaged ship and less of the supposedly disadvantaged ship. This leads to fleets folks call unbalanced...or did we forget the Sag debate...ie...the rest of the Early EA is weak so a broken Sag is fine...

Again...not saying the Hermes is completely busted, but it is advantaged vs most ships it's own level. Two to one vs most ships one level up its usually a coin toss depending on fairly likely crits on the missiles first strike. Three levels up and you start to see those secondary arrays come into play if its one raid vs three patrol (which it wouldn't be...it'd be a skirmish and two patrol, or four patrol vs a Raid) and the three flights of T-bolts become a big deal. As one of the above posters mentioned T-bolts biggest drawback is sad tendency to blow stuff up with a lucky crit. If your having trouble making T-bolts count you may need to check your fighter tactics.

Ripple