Hermes missile debate poll

[marsa10]

From the Hermes missile thread.

Which option would you favor?

 

[Burger]

Irrespective of the Hermes, Flash Missiles are way too good. Swapping SAP for AP is not enough of a compromise to gain Double Damage. They are what make sthe Sag (still) broken. Remove precise.

 

[Greg Smith]

2e makes a couple of those changes to the Hermes and makes flash missiles less effective.

 

[prelude_to_war]

Flash Missiles are way too good. Swapping SAP for AP is not enough of a compromise to gain Double Damage. They are what make sthe Sag (still) broken. Remove precise.

Totally agree.

 

[Chernobyl]

worry about it after 2e. too many cooks...

Chern

 

[Ripple]

if you wait until after second edition the meal is already done and you are stuck with it. I say if your allergic to the ingredients get in there now.

Ripple

 

[Chernobyl]

who can say how its going to compare with other ships?
Rule mechanics changes will alter the perception of what ships are too weak, too strong, etc.

Chern

 

[Hash]

Flash Missiles are way too good. Swapping SAP for AP is not enough of a compromise to gain Double Damage. They are what make sthe Sag (still) broken. Remove precise.

Totally agree.

Also in 100% agreement!

 

[Celisasu]

My personal stance is that until 2nd Edition, Flash Missles should just be officially banned in acknowledgement that they're what poses the problem. There's lots of other missles to play with even without the flash missles after all. This resolves everything without having to make any major changes.

 

[Joe_Dracos]

Who is playing EA?

 

[Greg Smith]

We playtesters all listen to what is being said on the boards. So if there is something that a lot of players think need fixing, we will do our best to get it fixed in 2e.

 

[CZuschlag]

We do need to keep in mind, however, that global changes (like to Flash) fundamentally change the Apollo and other missile ships -- does 2e have time to even consider such impacts? They are quite wide-ranging. Maybe it should make the time (another question) but we need to be careful to keep the other (more balanced) missile ships balanced, and not unintentionally nerf them when we're just after the Hermes' of the world....

 

[Joe_Dracos]

There is another question to concider, the hermes has 2 AD of DD ap slowloading shooting. This could be the complaining of non-EA players saying that a patrol level ship with no other weapons needs to be nerfed....

They were comparing it to the ShoKov which does have something to back up its 1 AD of it missile. The Sho Kov also has a 5+ dodge save to help its survivability.

The Hermes has no other weapons available (with the exception of its particle beams).

Maybe as a playtester you should "play test" the ship instead of taking peoples complaints as solid evidence. In my experience while playing mini games, you put up a topic about something (seemingly inocuous) and there will be enough people to rise up and complain.

 

[Target]

The Concensus i think is the Hermes it's self is all right, it's the flash missle that is unbalanced but thats still more to do with the Sag.

 

[Locutus9956]

I tend to agree on the flash missiles front. Personally I dont use them that often as they are:

a) A tad beardy
b) I LIKE having SAP missiles

 

[Hash]

I tend to agree on the flash missiles front. Personally I dont use them that often as they are:

a) A tad beardy
b) I LIKE having SAP missiles

I find that Locutus' reason a) is the main reason why some players choose certain things rather than not pick 'em

 

[Chernobyl]

also, you're more likely to need SAP at higher PL. down here at patrol AP works fine generally...

Chern

 

[Burger]

But you're also more likely to need double damage at higher levels. Single damage works down there at Patrol

 

[Ripple]

Couple of comments to Joe up a bit defending the hermes...

The hermes has interceptors helping defend it...much more reliable than the dodge of 5+ against the right kinds of weapons. And the flight of T-bolts it carries is hardly something to gloss over when you say it has no other weapons. And the Sho'Kov has LESS additional weaponry (only 4 to the hermes 14 AD) than the hermes, and lacks the anti-fighter trait on the those. They are turreted...but unless being attacked from behind the hermes is superior in firepower output.

The group I'm in plays differently than a lot of what we hear out of the playtest folks. Our input should be seen as an additional resource, not something to be debunked as non-credible. We have as much a vested interest in this being a good long running game as any other group. The Sag debacle was not discovered by the playtest crowd but by the tourney crowd, the one off players who push for most advantage rather than feel of the game or what 'my' fleet should feel like. We regularly play each others fleets to make sure we're not just looking at it from the wrong perspective.

Anyway, we have played for months now with the large hermes stack, and its beatable...but its much more hardcore than we expected, and much better than any other patrol ships we've tried bar the Vree (good up to about 3...) or the Corvan (same diminishing returns issue). We did not post once about it until the feeling was confirmed by two other groups in our area that played against it.

The comments on the flash missle were arrived at in the same way, as the olympus has proven to be much nastier than we originally gave it credit for, and that can be squarely laid at the feet of the flash missle. we used to consider the rail hyperion a real coin toss with the olypmus until we saw what the concentrated missile barrages could do. As a rule we don't take sag's, we feel our initial tests proved out the issues with them and useing them tainted every other test we did, but I'm willing to bet they are not nearly as nasty relying on regular missiles.

anyway...people being dismissive of groups outside the sacred confines g of the playtesters gets me pissy...no take the above rant personally if you bothered to read it...

Ripple - wonder if I can get official curmudgeon status...

 

[Davesaint]

There is another question to concider, the hermes has 2 AD of DD ap slowloading shooting. This could be the complaining of non-EA players saying that a patrol level ship with no other weapons needs to be nerfed....

They were comparing it to the ShoKov which does have something to back up its 1 AD of it missile. The Sho Kov also has a 5+ dodge save to help its survivability.

The Hermes has no other weapons available (with the exception of its particle beams).

Maybe as a playtester you should "play test" the ship instead of taking peoples complaints as solid evidence. In my experience while playing mini games, you put up a topic about something (seemingly inocuous) and there will be enough people to rise up and complain.

Actually Joe, I am an EA player. I killed a vorlon transport every other turn with missle fire from 8 hermes. That means I was able to do 160 points of damage every other turn against that ship before the adaptive armor. The final turn against the vorlon CL I hit it with missles from 3 olympus, 8 Hermes, and IIRC 2 2ad rear borsight beams and did 240 points of damage to said CL before adaptive. Thats 22 AD of flash missles and 4 AD of beams. Is this a little excessive? Likely.

I am not a ACTA playtester. I sent an e-mail to matt last fall with the request for our group to be a playtest group for ACTA. Our group has done playtesting for Star Fleet Battles, B5Wars, Starblazers, and many other game systems. We know how to build fleets to break the system, and as good playtesters do, we notify people of our concerns.

In my opinion there are several issues of balance in the game system. Some of them were fixed in Armageddon, however some new loopholes were created. Prior to Armageddon, ships like the Hermes, while good hulls, were not as powerful because the breakdown in PL levels made the "Swarm of Little Ships" tactic less useful. What makes the Hermes so good is that in Early and 3rd Age EA you have very useful ships at skirmish level so the breakdown from raid isn't painful. For a 5 raid fleet you could take 5 Olympus and 10 Hermes and still be very competitive

Dave