Not as much as I would wish. After I got back to a line unit, I was a lot more attuned to the situation, and there ae an awfull lot of immigrents in most units. Thats really nothing new, the US army has always had a lot of them from the revalotion on. But the numbers seem to be higher than ever before. I dont mind the immigrents, mind, its the lack of citizen participation.
Hello from a newcomer!
- Thread starter David St-Michel
- Start date
Hey S4!Supplement Four said:
Try John Maddox Roberts' SPQR series:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPQR_series
http://www.amazon.com/The-SPQR-Series/lm/R2LI4Q27B4XOXA
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/SPQR_series
Fine books. The stories take place near the end of the Roman Republic, like HBO's show. Highly recommended!
PrinceYyrkoon
Mongoose
[quote
Our tolerance will be the death of us. Rome fell from within.[/quote]
Sorry, what? Intolerance is good, is it?!
Rome did fall from within, through a complexity of factors. I dont want to start a flame war, but I really dont see why tolerance would ever be detremental to humanity.
As to Howard, and Conan. Yes, Conan is a personification of the Neitzschean viewpoint, no doubt about it. 'Crush you enemies, see them driven before you, hear the lamentation of their women'. (Yes, I know its from the film, but everyone knows that quote, and its a pretty good summing up of what makes Conan tick). I didn't know Howard, and never got to ask him what he really thought, so I cant say, exactly, what his beliefs were, but I guess they were fairly typical of the time and place.
I tend to accept more readily in the stories, the the positive ethnic characterisations, and there are lots of them. But, it worries me when I read things such as Conan being 'tired' of black women. I find it disappointing, to be honest. Im sure most of us do these days.
Conan, as a character, isnt in anyway PC. However, neither is Elric. Nor Tolkiens assertion that handsomeness equates to good and ugliness to bad. Literature is a facet of humanity, and can be difficult, thought-provoking and inconsistent.
Tolerance will be the saviour of us all, however.
Our tolerance will be the death of us. Rome fell from within.[/quote]
Sorry, what? Intolerance is good, is it?!
Rome did fall from within, through a complexity of factors. I dont want to start a flame war, but I really dont see why tolerance would ever be detremental to humanity.
As to Howard, and Conan. Yes, Conan is a personification of the Neitzschean viewpoint, no doubt about it. 'Crush you enemies, see them driven before you, hear the lamentation of their women'. (Yes, I know its from the film, but everyone knows that quote, and its a pretty good summing up of what makes Conan tick). I didn't know Howard, and never got to ask him what he really thought, so I cant say, exactly, what his beliefs were, but I guess they were fairly typical of the time and place.
I tend to accept more readily in the stories, the the positive ethnic characterisations, and there are lots of them. But, it worries me when I read things such as Conan being 'tired' of black women. I find it disappointing, to be honest. Im sure most of us do these days.
Conan, as a character, isnt in anyway PC. However, neither is Elric. Nor Tolkiens assertion that handsomeness equates to good and ugliness to bad. Literature is a facet of humanity, and can be difficult, thought-provoking and inconsistent.
Tolerance will be the saviour of us all, however.
Supplement Four
Mongoose
Axerules said:
Thanks brother. I've heard of these. Didn't know that JMR wrote them. I love his Conan work. Conan the Bold is amazing.
I'll take a closer look at 'em. The whole "detective" thing turned me off when I first heard of 'em. It seemed a cross-genre that wouldn't work for me.
But, many people have recommended them to me--so, I prolly don't know what I'm missing.
PrinceYyrkoon
Mongoose
Krushnak said:
Well, I suppose because of all those modern issues that society is aware of these days. It isnt 1931 anymore. That quote implies that dark skinned women are somehow inferior, (at least in Conans eyes), and that lighter skinned women have more to offer him, regardless of personality, intelligence or outlook.
When you read Conan, you have to put aside these issues. Lots of people can't, and see both Conan and Howard as relics of an age rife with bigotry, quotes like the one above reinforce that.
VincentDarlage
Mongoose
PrinceYyrkoon said:
Apparently, I am in a minority, as I never saw that line as racist, but a statement of Conan's need for some variety, no different than someone being tired of blondes, or tired of only dating younger women, or tired of fat women, or tired of overly skinny women, or tired of only dating women who are mechanics. I am not so sure that implies inferiority. Sometimes people just get tired of what they are surrounded by.
Conan is a wanderer - and most wanderers need new things - they need variety. I took that line as reinforcing his wandering personality. I also took it as confirmation that, at one point, he wasn't tired of black women, and possibly found them to be exciting and new!
I am not saying there aren't racist comments in REH's work (one can find it in almost all the works of that era - even in Warner Brothers cartoons), but that one particular statement never struck me as being such.
David St-Michel
Mongoose
Thanks for making me feel welcome, Axerules. 
I think the the thread's slowly but surely slipping away from my initial idea. In the Conan stories, there is an evident level of ethnic and racial distance between certain people. If that is based on Howard's personnal ideals, or what the world was like in the 1920's and 30's, is a moot point.
The fact is, the tension is there. Most people are affraid of Picts. They don't trust Shemites. They loathe Stygians. They use Black Kingdom tribesmen as slaves. They fear the Afghuli and everything else near the Vilayet sea. They have probably never met anyone east of the Vilayet, like the Khitan and such. Zamorans are theives. Zingarans are backstabbers. Cimmerians, Aesir and Vanir are savages. Hyberboreans are slow, stupid brutes.
This is the feeling get when I read Howard's books, and the info I received from most of the Conan 2nd edition RPG books I have.
A couple of folks told me how they incorporated these situations in their games, if they incorporated them at all. I thank them for it.
How do you -other- players and GMs play up these racial tensions, these ethnic situations?
I think the the thread's slowly but surely slipping away from my initial idea. In the Conan stories, there is an evident level of ethnic and racial distance between certain people. If that is based on Howard's personnal ideals, or what the world was like in the 1920's and 30's, is a moot point.
The fact is, the tension is there. Most people are affraid of Picts. They don't trust Shemites. They loathe Stygians. They use Black Kingdom tribesmen as slaves. They fear the Afghuli and everything else near the Vilayet sea. They have probably never met anyone east of the Vilayet, like the Khitan and such. Zamorans are theives. Zingarans are backstabbers. Cimmerians, Aesir and Vanir are savages. Hyberboreans are slow, stupid brutes.
This is the feeling get when I read Howard's books, and the info I received from most of the Conan 2nd edition RPG books I have.
A couple of folks told me how they incorporated these situations in their games, if they incorporated them at all. I thank them for it.
How do you -other- players and GMs play up these racial tensions, these ethnic situations?
Supplement Four
Mongoose
Krushnak said:
Yeah, there seems to be a double standard when it comes to blacks. The "N" word is un-utterable. Oh my gosh! But, equally disturbing racial slurs (spic, chink, whop, or even honkey or cracker) don't seem to be placed in the same category.
I hate to bring up the TV show Rome again, but I will, because it applies. I love how they show slaves in the program. White/brown/yellow/black, it doesn't matter. Slaves are slaves.
Watching last night, a noble woman was chewing a nut while a slave attended her. Almost like an after thought, as one would do a dog if one wanted, she spit the nut in the slaves face--without a care, without a second thought. And, the slave just took it as the normal part of his life's existence.
That's the type of mindset one has to understand when reading Conan.
Today's morals and political correctness do not apply.
PrinceYyrkoon
Mongoose
Supplement Four said:
Hmm. Don't know what point youre making there SF. Yes, right,they are only words, its about context. Thats what we are talking about, not whether one word is taboo or not. As an aside, I probably wouldn't use any of those other terms either.
Mr. Darlage, yes, I agree with your point. I find it interesting how we view and judge distasteful opinions from the archives, is all. Howard isnt alone in having these naive opinions, as Ive said, Tolkien had a similar mindset.
Again context. If a writer decides to write about how his fictional hero doesn't like 'black women', does it matter that the author thinks the same? I think it probably does.
Supplement Four
Mongoose
PrinceYyrkoon said:
My point is simple. If you're reading a book about the US Civil War, and see a character from the South refer to his slaves as "niggers", you don't have to feel bad about reading it. That's the way it was.
Taking today's morals into yesteryear makes for false history.
Same thing with Conan. A certain universe is set up--a fantasy universe, but no less a universe. There are rules that apply to the Hyborian Age. It was supposed to be a rough, man-eat-man peroid in our fictional history. Don't feel bad reading about something that may not be politically correct in today's real world.
David St-Michel said:
When I started my Conan campaign, the other players had not really read much of REH. They had seen the movie and we always used the movie soundtrack when ever we played D&D. Since they weren't familiar with the nations I translated them into today's world.
Zingaria-Spain
Argos-Portugal or Italian City-States
Aquilonia-France
Nemedia-Germany
Corinthia-Homeric Greece
Koth-Byzantine Empire
Shem-Middle East
Turan-Various Mongol Empires
Vendhya-India
Kihitai-China
Stygia-Ancient Egypt
Black Kingdoms-pre colonial Africa
Nordheim-Scandinavia
Iranistan-Persia
Pictish Wilderness-White man's view of Indians around the colonial times
I know it's not 100% accurate but it helped them get a feel for the game and the different races.
Hope it helps.
PrinceYyrkoon
Mongoose
Supplement Four said:
Sorry, yes, I get it. I suppose what we are talking about is this context thing. Theres no reason to whitewash history so that it does not offend our contemporary sensitivities, the opposite, in fact, is neccessary.
Were not talking about taboo words, its the way Howard and others of the time, used their beliefs (whether aware or not), to colour their fiction. I think it a sideline, in fact, when reading something like the Conan stories. No one seriously wants to emulate Conan, and we all know that life isnt a series of simple problems and straightforward solutions. Its a fantasy. Conan is a Nietzian superman. Is it a parable? I would prefer to think so.
Would you understand Howards beliefs after reading Conan? Possibly. I would suggest that, at worst, the Conan stories could be seen as an attempt at manipulation, a way for Howard to express his beliefs to the reader. At best, the stories approach the power of myth.
Not quite. The biggest reason Rome fell was because its own citizens could no longer serve in its armies or anywhere else: because they were dead. Rome was ravaged by disease: possibly the arrival of smallpox in Europe. If you're worried about going the way of Rome you should be more concerned about Avian Flu than tolerance.
I strongly recommend Lindsey Davies:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindsey_Davis
In my Hyboria, racial prejudice is limited. The Hyborians have a bit of a superiority complex (I usually equate Howards "white" to "Hyborian" to explain why the Picts aren't "white"). Mostly, people dislike those they have a reason to. Picts, for example, will have a hard time in Aquilonia, and to a lesser extent Zingara, but no more than any other barbarian in, say Ophir. They might even do quite well in Argos or Nemedia, being on an enemy's other border. In God in the Bowl Demetrio seems quite tolerant of Conan's foibles: the fact that he is a Nemedian official aand the Cimmerians gave Aquilonia a kicking at Venarium may have much to do with that!
Other prejudices, however, are in full swing. In particular the one that has actually dominated history: status. An Aquilonian noble would rather associate with a Kushite noble than an Aquilonian peasant.
PrinceYyrkoon
Mongoose
Yes, going back to the fall of the Roman Empire, it had less to do with 'too much tolerance', and more to do with cultural inertia. A combination of factors, in fact. Nothing to do with Romans somehow being too tolerant.
I would say, too, that a 'Celt' or 'German' serving in the Roman army would condsider himself primarily Roman. Its been well documented that many Romans never actually saw Rome, nor were they even born anywhere near Italy. I do not think it acurate to say that Romes armies were composed of 'foreigners', it was composed of professional soldiers recruited from all over the Empire.
I would say, too, that a 'Celt' or 'German' serving in the Roman army would condsider himself primarily Roman. Its been well documented that many Romans never actually saw Rome, nor were they even born anywhere near Italy. I do not think it acurate to say that Romes armies were composed of 'foreigners', it was composed of professional soldiers recruited from all over the Empire.
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