Heavy Gravity Worlders

[EDG]

Stuff and nonsense. 40K has nothing to do with Traveller at all.

Your application of "Occam's Razor" is pure nonsense because it's based on a false assumption. 40K doesn't even remotely look or feel like any kind of Traveller, let alone a "religious flavour" of it. 40K is "grim, militaristic fantasy in space, with a psychotic Inquisition-bent to it". Traveller is "average joes ekeing out a living among the stars". They are two totally different things. Hell, if anything 40K started off as WFRP in space. (EDIT: And yes, I'd be a lot more convinced of a link to the 2000AD strips too. That sort of thing was a big influence on British creativity at the time).

Again, you're seeing a handful of vague similarities (shared by a zillion other SF backgrounds, both in fiction and RPGs) and falsely claiming that it must be an "ATU" because of those. The fact that people at GW (who may not even be there anymore) once worked on Traveller in the distant past does not imply any similarity between the settings.

You're in a minority of one here, Aramis. Again, show me actual evidence of a connection (i.e. a 40K developer saying "yes, we based 40K on Traveller") and I may believe you. But don't give me your dubious inferences and assumptions and try to pass them off as fact.

 

[Klaus Kipling]

(EDIT: And yes, I'd be a lot more convinced of a link to the 2000AD strips too. That sort of thing was a big influence on British creativity at the time).

Just a guess, but considering that GW were producing a Judge Dredd rpg at the same time, quite an educated one that there were direct links.

 

[rust]

Apply Occam's razor ...

Applying Occam's Razor would leave Starship Troopers and some other
earlier and contemporary sources as necessary influences and eliminate
Traveller as an unnecessary influence, because none of the Warhammer
40K ideas is unique to Traveller.

 

[Tathlum]

The commonalities in widely varied tech in even adjacent systems,

Yup and for broadly similar reasons.

the rabid anti-psionic attitudes,

Not even close between the two. 40K psychers are used as agents if strong enough, others sacrificed to feed the Emperor, most slain before they can act as a conduit for Daemonic outsiders that threaten the very nature of reality.
The Imperium fear the Zhodani.

the marines as battledress,

Starship Troopers is likely the main influence here, but even leaving that aside. Traveller Marines are the directly controlled high-tech ground capable forces of the Empire acting in hand with the Imperial Navy.
40K marines are heavily genetically engineered, 7 foot tall, acid spiting Knights in space. They operate as 1000 separate units independant of central Imperial control, with their own fleets separate of the Navy, their worlds are not tithed by the Empire and they are not believers in the Imperial Cult, a death sentance for anyone else.

the locally raised army troops being carted off to fight elsewhere,

A natural trope of Feudalism in Space.

the strong nobility,

Again, Feudalism in space. But the duties and character of the Nobilities are very different. In Traveller they have corporate links and are largely concerned with maintaining the Imperiums wealth and stability.
In 40K they organise the mass slaughter of Xenos, traitors, heretics and the testing and possible slaughter of psykers.

the rampant inhabitation of inhospitable worlds,

Yup thats similar.

the rough upper tech level (TTL 16 for the 40K universe, due to matter transmission);

But very different technological assumptions. Also in one technology is scientific, in the other its spiritual. 40K tech-priests have much more in common with the colapse of the Empire in the foundation trilogy. The whole nature and character of technology is different. Titans with void shields are very different from Trepida grav-tanks.

cheap and easy gravitics and fusion,

Gravitic technology is beyond the capability of the vast majority of 40K Worlds. The Imperial Guards tank are tracked. Plasma is a rare and failing science. Only a few forgeworlds can still make tank with plasma cannons for example.
The Mars educated Tech-Marine can maintain enough Grav technology to field land-speeders the only common grav capable combat vehicle. The Dark Angels are the last to have a couple of working Grav-Bikes.
In Traveller you can walk into a shop and buy a grav bike.

local autonomy of nobles,

Yup this is similar. As is Dune.

massive bureaucracies,

They rule 16,000 worlds and over 1,000,000 respectively.
Yes they both have huge bureaucracies. As did Dune. And the Foundation trilogy.

age of sail ship thinking,

The central thinking in 40K is not age of sail. Its Warhammer Fantasy in Space. It's technology as witchcraft, enemy within paranoia, law versus chaos, death to all Aliens, Mutants, Heretics and Traitors, the terror of the inquisition and a boot spamping on a human face for 10,000 years until chaos unravels reality, or we get eaten by Tyranids, or soul destroyed by Necrons.
Sure it takes ages to get anywhere but at least you don't get eaten in Jumpspace.

Merchants as the primary spacefarers...

Merchants are not the primary spacefarers in 40K, the Priesthood are. The 40K does not trade with Aliens as a policy (though individuals do) and anything they need from worlds they take as tithes. To travel through the warp you need either a Navigator (so are working for the Imperium) or a renegade psycher which is death if caught or if a Daemon gobbles the psycher. Short jumps are possible but restrict you to a small cluster of worlds. Traveller type merchants are rare.
Rogue Traders are not Merchants.

Calling it an ATU is a humorous but mild exaggeration. The parallels dwarf the much more visible differences.

And I'd argue its a huge exageration. Yes I can see Traveller as an influence, but I see Dune, Foundation and Starship Troopers influencing both. And they are vastly different in tone, character, detail and scale.
Star Wars have a big Empire in Space too. With suppressed psychics and local nobilities, high tech and low tech worlds in adjacent systems. Independant tramp traders and a cosmopolitan universe, full of Alien citizens. Star Wars has more in common with Traveller than with 40K. Yet traveller is not an alternate Star Wars universe.

Differences including the inquisition and religion-based modality, and 38 thousand years from now rather than 3800, and the neo-latinism and neoludditism. Then there are the fantasy port-over elements: Elves, Dwarves, ratlings, Orcs... Demons...

....A half-dead psycic Emperor that prevents the gods of Chaos from manifesting into the real universe, no prehistoric human diaspora, FTL travel enabled not by technology but by a controlled mutant subspecies or Navigators and a psychic beacon powered by the very lifeforce of the psykers, a more dystopian vision, a transgalatic invasion, a paranoid, genosidal neo-fascist empire based on purity of the species, lack of merchant/econimic basis, the real threat of chaotic distortion of the fabric of reality, FTL communications...

Its origins clearly lie closely intertwined with traveller. It rapidly grew away from Traveller, but it's close kin setting-wise. (As much as f not more than the Iron Empires setting by C. Moeller, who admits Traveller being the inspiration for IE.).

Closely intertwined how? The are both large Empires in Space, have Marines and enforced decentralisation due to travel times. So do Dune and Foundation. All bar Traveller have FTL communication a central difference of Traveller.

Apply Occam's razor: it looks and feels like a religious flavor of Traveller. The authors had been official licensees of Traveller, and produced OTU works, too. It's different enough to not be plagiarism, but close enough that the roots of the authors show clearly.

They also licenced D&D, Judge Dread, Runequest and loads of other stuff. Yes they clearly took elements from all sorts of stuff, including Traveller. But like I said calling it an ATU vastly overstates the reality.

Occams razor also says Traveller is Star Wars ATU. No one likes Occams razor, it's a smart ass.

But all this is waaaayyy off-topic, how about we agree to differ?

(To be fair I also disagree with EDG that there is no influence. I see some, but not nearly enough to agree with you Aramis).

 

[EDG]

(To be fair I also disagree with EDG that there is no influence. I see some, but not nearly enough to agree with you Aramis).

I see similarities in a few tropes, but no influence. I agree with your excellent comparison Tathlum, I just can't see how CT could have possibly influenced 40K given all those differences and other vastly more important influences.

 

[rust]

Occams razor also says Traveller is Star Wars ATU.

Ah, well, not really, since Star Wars does hardly predate Traveller long
enough to have influenced it, as both were published in 1977.
William of Occam may have been a smart ass, but he would hardly have
made that conclusion.

 

[zozotroll]

Rust there is out there by one of the original authers an interview that says at least hyper was influenced by starwars. He talks about going to see starwars and loving the opening scene. And that they thought the jump to hyper was very cool.

I havent read it in a few years, so dont remeber who it was. I bet there is some one here that can post a link. Some times things are connected in odd ways.

 

[rust]

Rust there is out there by one of the original authers an interview that says at least hyper was influenced by starwars.

Odd indeed, but I have to admit that it is quite plausible.

 

[EDG]

Rust there is out there by one of the original authers an interview that says at least hyper was influenced by starwars. He talks about going to see starwars and loving the opening scene. And that they thought the jump to hyper was very cool.

I havent read it in a few years, so dont remeber who it was. I bet there is some one here that can post a link. Some times things are connected in odd ways.

Sorry, what are you referring to here? "Original authors" of what? "hyper was influenced by starwars"? Traveller has Jump Drive (which takes a week), not Hyperspace (which seems to take a few hours).

 

[zozotroll]

Hey I didnt write the interview I just read it. If they are comenting on starwars who does that leave to be the one talking?

I guess the connection between hyper and Jump is to tought to make.

 

[Tathlum]

Occams razor also says Traveller is Star Wars ATU.

Ah, well, not really, since Star Wars does hardly predate Traveller long
enough to have influenced it, as both were published in 1977.
William of Occam may have been a smart ass, but he would hardly have
made that conclusion.

Misses my point. Aramis was suggesting that because GW were involved in Traveller Occams razor says that it was an influence, as it is the simplest explaination.
Fine as far as Occams Razor goes, but ignores too many other factors.
I suggested there was far more similarity between Star Wars and Traveller than between Traveller and 40K. Simplest explaination given the facts we discussed and ignoring all else.... Occams razor says its Star Wars.

Basically, Occams razor is a usefull tool. It does not count as proof, nor end all discussion.

 

[rust]

Now that zozotroll mentioned it, I also remember that interview.

I have no idea how much that visit to the cinema may have influenced
any specific part of Traveller, as most of the game should already have
been completed at that time.

However, it is possible that there were some last minute (well, rather
last month) changes, although I would think that these most probably
were minor ones.

 

[rust]

Misses my point.

Yep, you are right, a misunderstanding.

 

[EDG]

Hey I didnt write the interview I just read it. If they are comenting on starwars who does that leave to be the one talking?

I guess the connection between hyper and Jump is to tought to make.

No, as in I have no idea what you're even talking about. Interview with who? Who is "they"? Traveller doesn't have a "hyper", 40K doesn't either (it has Warp), but star wars does, so what are you talking about?

Sorry, but your initial post wasn't remotely clear.

 

[zozotroll]

S"OK EDG it wasnt directed at you, just at Rust, and he got it.

 

[EDG]

Fair enough then.

 

[rust]

Ladies and Gentlemen, we proudly present: The Interview !

Well, in fact it is an article I remembered, but the content is the same,
and it seems that Star Wars did influence Traveller, although not in a
major way:

http://www.cgi101.com/~lkw/tra.html#A

 

[simonh]

There are many far more obvious and direct influences on Traveller than Star Wars, but as a visual experience inevitably SW affects out image of what many aspects of the Traveller universe look like. I think that's what Loren is saying. Clearly the mechanics of Jump Drive are different from those of SW Hyperdrive, and both are derivative of many pre-existing FTL systems described in SF fiction, but the visual effect of the transition to either Jump or Hyperspace is a different matter.

Simon Hibbs

 

[captainjack23]

There are many far more obvious and direct influences on Traveller than Star Wars, but as a visual experience inevitably SW affects out image of what many aspects of the Traveller universe look like. I think that's what Loren is saying. Clearly the mechanics of Jump Drive are different from those of SW Hyperdrive, and both are derivative of many pre-existing FTL systems described in SF fiction, but the visual effect of the transition to either Jump or Hyperspace is a different matter.

Simon Hibbs

Plus, don't forget those glowing thruster plates....