# Healing (Surgery) Question. CRB 2016 Edition

#### IanBruntlett

##### Cosmic Mongoose
The CRB 2016 Edition states:
Surgery restores characteristic points just like
first aid but if the check is failed the patient loses more
characteristic points equal to 3+ the Effect of the Medic
check.
Personally I think it should be "the patient loses more characteristic points equal to the Effect of the Medic check".

Does that make sense?

#### Reisender

##### Banded Mongoose
I read this differently. I think what it means is that a failed Medic check causes at least a loss of 3 characteristic points. This is further modified by the effect of the check. The effect of a failed roll is always negative. But with the formula above this would mean that the higher the failure the less the loss. So I think it should read 3 - the effect of the Medic check, as minus and minus is plus again.
Example:
Doctor with Medic - 2, EDU DM +1 rolls a 3 on the Medic Average(8+) check for a total of 6, which is a failure.
6 - 8 is an effect of -2 which results in a loss of 3 - (-2) = 5 characteristic points.

Last edited:

#### Arkathan

##### Cosmic Mongoose
The updated version fixes this.
If you fail, you lose 3 plus the effect, meaning Reisender's example is in line with the current wording.
Edit: Or maybe it doesn't fix it, but Reisender's example is still the correct one.

#### Jump Dave

##### Banded Mongoose
The 2016 Core Rulebook says:
Surgery restores characteristic points just like first aid but if the check is failed the patient loses more characteristic points equal to 3+ the Effect of the Medic check.

The 2022 update says:
Surgery restores characteristic points just like first aid but if the check is failed the patient loses more characteristic points equal to 3+ the Effect of the Medic check (EDU).

So the only difference is that is specifies EDU to be used for the Medic roll. I concur that it should say "3 minus the Effect" though.

#### Reisender

##### Banded Mongoose
The 2016 Core Rulebook says:

The 2022 update says:

So the only difference is that is specifies EDU to be used for the Medic roll. I concur that it should say "3 minus the Effect" though.
In CRB 2016 it lists the first aid check under the medic skill as an example and it gives EDU as the associated characteristic there. So EDU is used both for first aid and surgery. Would have been nice to have this repeated in the healing section again as a reminder.

#### Garran

##### Banded Mongoose
It also depends on what the original intent was: if the 3+ was meant to act as a buffer (so you only lose points if you fail by 4 or more) then it needs a complete rewrite.

#### Arkathan

##### Cosmic Mongoose
Need an example with the formula, since parentheses are difficult to infer from the written word.
is it stats -3 + effect or stats - (3+effect)?
The former gives a minimum of -4 to stats on a failure and the latter only reduces if you fail by 4.
Now, in my group, the Doctor has high Ed, skill level 3 working on 4, and uses a med bay or +2 medkit, so it is difficult to get him to fail on anything other than snake eyes if the task is average or lower.

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