Have points costs for ships.
- Thread starter sidewinder
- Start date
That is true Alexb83 but the Explorer is not a Carrier.
So you will only be able to start one fighter each round or use Scramble, Scramble! or whatever it is called ... However this would stop you from using Full Power to Engines! to close the distance faster ( ok from speed 4 to speed 6 is not that big deal at all but it counts :roll: )
I would be afraid when facing 6 Thunderbolts at once ... but one after the other ?
With hull 6 i can take a hit or two by a single fighter ... if it is possible for the fighter to get into my Aft arc without getting shot by my secondary ( range 12, 6AD ap,dd ) and/or the tertiary weapon ( range 8, 6AD tw-lk ).
A Raid ship with 3 different front arc weapon system .... no comment on this at all :wink: )
So you will only be able to start one fighter each round or use Scramble, Scramble! or whatever it is called ... However this would stop you from using Full Power to Engines! to close the distance faster ( ok from speed 4 to speed 6 is not that big deal at all but it counts :roll: )
I would be afraid when facing 6 Thunderbolts at once ... but one after the other ?
With hull 6 i can take a hit or two by a single fighter ... if it is possible for the fighter to get into my Aft arc without getting shot by my secondary ( range 12, 6AD ap,dd ) and/or the tertiary weapon ( range 8, 6AD tw-lk ).
A Raid ship with 3 different front arc weapon system .... no comment on this at all :wink: )
Hans Olo said:Burger said:Explorers are a pretty bad example, since they are not meant to be combat ships. They are best used in specific scenarios IMO.
Better example is a Prefect vs a Rongoth
Yes that's definitely the better example, but the outcome would be the same!
Anyway what Dr. Seltsam tries to show is that there are a lot of ships that don't stand a chance against other ships within they're priority level and the question is why do they share the same level?
I could imagine a system that uses priority levels and point values so that a really good raid ship costs more, point wise than a poor raid choice.
That is exaclty what i wanted to show !
Thanks for the clarification Hans
Sharlins aren't carriers either 
Very few ships have the trait, but many have quite large fighter complements (nova, omega too)
Maintain your distance as much as possible whilst deploying all the fighters, if possible using the random debris to screen yourself. Then when they're all out, swarm him with Tbolts, and try and get your heavy pulse cannon in there too.
The explorer like Burger says isn't a great example... it's a bit of an oddball ship (although I might think about using one for the cheap command bonus and fighters). Even at hull 4, it has a lot of damage... just try and avoid those battle lasers.
In 1 on 1 combat, the two ships dont match - but they're not meant to. The explorer is almost a specialist ship, whereas the Prefect is a small line warship which punches over its weight.
Very few ships have the trait, but many have quite large fighter complements (nova, omega too)Maintain your distance as much as possible whilst deploying all the fighters, if possible using the random debris to screen yourself. Then when they're all out, swarm him with Tbolts, and try and get your heavy pulse cannon in there too.
The explorer like Burger says isn't a great example... it's a bit of an oddball ship (although I might think about using one for the cheap command bonus and fighters). Even at hull 4, it has a lot of damage... just try and avoid those battle lasers.
In 1 on 1 combat, the two ships dont match - but they're not meant to. The explorer is almost a specialist ship, whereas the Prefect is a small line warship which punches over its weight.
Alexb83 said:Sharlins aren't carriers either
Maintain your distance as much as possible whilst deploying all the fighters, if possible using the random debris to screen yourself. Then when they're all out, swarm him with Tbolts, and try and get your heavy pulse cannon in there too.
The explorer like Burger says isn't a great example... it's a bit of an oddball ship (although I might think about using one for the cheap command bonus and fighters). Even at hull 4, it has a lot of damage... just try and avoid those battle lasers.
In 1 on 1 combat the two ships dont match - but they're not meant to. The explorer is almost a specialist ship, whereas the Prefect is a small line warship which punches over its weight.
For the protocoll: i will not suggest to give the Sharlin a carrier trait - that was Alexb83 :wink:
Can we agree that a Explorer would be either Toast, a training target or really,reallly,reallllly lucky to survive at all in a one-on-one match against a prefect ?
# Using sellar debris is only possible if there is any at all.
# Maintain distance is difficult - the main Prefect weapon is a really big, ugly, nasty and %$&§! gun for Raid ( range 25, 3AD beam, dd, superAP ).
Your example with a EA Nova is better - that's true. EA small warship vs. Centauri small warship.
The Nova has at least a small change. But it's still slower, 1pt less hull, only 1 damage point and 7 crew better and the main weapon is almost equal ... to the secondary weapon system of the Prefect !
If you wait until all fighters are unloaded you have to wait at least 2 turns ( 1 at start, 1st turn Scramble, 2nd turn onload last ) before you can start running for the Prefect. So you have to hide successfully 2 turns.
I understand what you want to tell my about ships and specific role they should fulfill - but this is from the fluff background. It has to be "translated" into the PL system in a proper way.
If the ship is not a fighting ship why has it a PL level suggesting it ?
Greg Smith
Mongoose
DrSeltsam said:
I wasn't insulted. You'd know for sure if I was.
Constructive criticism is a good thing. And I understand that everyone wants to improve the game - I do to, that's why I'm a playtester.There is a lot of work goes into balancing even with PLs. Personally I love the simplicity of the PL system, but understand the appeal of points.
The thing is that ACtA is a fleet game. While one ship may have a lot of fire power and lack fighter cover, another ship with less firepower can be selected to provide the fighter cover.
For example, the Rongoth has a good hull, damage and crew score and can throw a decent number of attack dice at shorter ranges. It lacks any fighters, long range weapons and special traits. To cover these holes we can select other ships. If fighters are our main concern, the T'Rann brings four to the table, but they will be slow in launching. If you want some fighters and longer range fire power, bring 2 Ka'Tan or Ka'Toc from the skirmish level. If you need to clear large numbers of fighters, nothing is better than a Dag'Kar, while it survives.
ACta is broken when a fleet of all one ship is vastly superior to a well thought out fleet where ships cover each other's weaknesses or when one ship at a PL is wholly useless in a fleet for its cost.
For example, the Rongoth has a good hull, damage and crew score and can throw a decent number of attack dice at shorter ranges. It lacks any fighters, long range weapons and special traits. To cover these holes we can select other ships. If fighters are our main concern, the T'Rann brings four to the table, but they will be slow in launching. If you want some fighters and longer range fire power, bring 2 Ka'Tan or Ka'Toc from the skirmish level. If you need to clear large numbers of fighters, nothing is better than a Dag'Kar, while it survives.
ACta is broken when a fleet of all one ship is vastly superior to a well thought out fleet where ships cover each other's weaknesses or when one ship at a PL is wholly useless in a fleet for its cost.
having been a player of sfb( since the pocket edition ) and classic btech ( from back just after the name change from "battledroids" to battletech), i can tell you this. i much prefer the pl system over the points systems. basic point value(bpv) of ships is one of the most contested things in sfb and while cbt has a very detailed point system it is time consuming and it is just easier to use the "mech random assignment" tables which work just as well. one of the things that the pl system shows us is that race A's battle level ships maybe more then a match for race B's but is inferior to race D & G's ships and i prefer to have that racial flavor element myself ( which is difficult to quantify) .while i would not object to a point system for this game i would happily due without it.
Brother Jim
Mongoose
A relatively simple way to get an already written, mathematically designed points system for ACTA would be to make a deal with MJ12 Games to use the Starmada rules. I like them more than the Full Thrust rules.
Burger said:
It's granularity that's the issue. The PL system requires the ships to be altered to fit to resolve balance issues, a points system would just need an adjustment in the value of the ship.
Both adjustments subjectively of course.
But subjective pointing systems work better than mathematically correct costing systems, because at the end of the day, on balance, gut feeling will tell you that something is War/500 points worth overall, rather than giving a discount as "someone" can evade your Stealth out there, thereby devaluing Stealth when in reality you're never going to be fighting those units.
Calculated points systems break and can easily be munchkined for homebrew units - subjectivity tells you what its actually worth, not what a quirk in the maths says its worth.
emperorpenguin
Mongoose
frobisher said:
Very true
emperorpenguin
Mongoose
Hans Olo said:
Drakh can beat it, so can Minbari
One thing that showed in the quick points evaluation that Triggy and i done was the prefect was far superior to the Centurion. The points were fairly similar just divide mine 3 and it's roughly what triggy had.That took me 10 mins to do.
Speed and turns aren't really worth that much as usually you start facing each other. Speed just means you get closer quicker to the enemies guns. The Whitestar manueverbility it more the ability to be able to target whatever it likes. This game is more about guns than anything else. Usually who has the biggest/most wins.
Speed and turns aren't really worth that much as usually you start facing each other. Speed just means you get closer quicker to the enemies guns. The Whitestar manueverbility it more the ability to be able to target whatever it likes. This game is more about guns than anything else. Usually who has the biggest/most wins.
Reaverman said:
Hah, everyone knows a Sharlin is worth 1800 points so the example is invalid
But more seriously, is that still a "1000 point battle"? Given that you've reduced the number of FAPs and set the PL to Skirmish, I think not.
However, your point has merit. A straight points system on its own does not restrict what you can buy, only what you can afford.
Very few games I know have a straight points system.
Most have a "qualifying units" level - WHFB3 had a minimum purchase percentage for Rank and File troops before you could buy certain other things. You had to buy certain levels at minimum of certain units before you could even think of purchasing the really tasty units.
Babylon 5 Wars had a rarity value for varients for hulls (the nice varients could only represent one in 3 or 1 in 9 of that hull present) and a restriction value (33% for instance meant that no more than 33% of your points could be spent on units that had a 33% restriction in total).
Obviously there are other systems out there...
Actually, that could make for an interesting matchup. 5 Prefect Vs. 5 Light Cruisers. Light Cruiser has Hull 5 as opossed to 6, but can block some of the damage with GEG 2. Has less total Hull/Crew and shorter range on the Beam, but does gain precise. It also has more turns which means that a tactic of blowing past the battle line and attacking the flanks while they struggle to turn could be very effective. Definitely one to try out.
