Gunderman Pike & Shield Adjustments

[slaughterj]

It takes a move action to don a shield, apparently whether you strap it to your arm to get the parry bonus or strap it to your shoulder (e.g., when using a two-handed weapon such as a pike). You can combine this with drawing a weapon, whether as a free action if you have +1 BAB and move, or whatnot.

It seems that a Gunderman with a shield strapped to his shoulder while wielding a pike will often want to drop the pike, draw a sword, and adjust the shield to a regular combat position (i.e., get the parry bonus), once a foe is adjacent to the Gunderman, because the Gunderman cannot retreat far enough to use the pike effectively without drawing an AOO from his foe (pike only can be used at 15-20', so he would have to retreat 10', and other than a 5' step or a withdraw action, he would trigger an AOO). Though not addressed, presumably it is reasonable for the Gunderman to free-action drop the pike, and use a move action to both draw the sword AND adjust the shield (drawing no AOO)?

 

[Oly]

Though not addressed, presumably it is reasonable for the Gunderman to free-action drop the pike, and use a move action to both draw the sword AND adjust the shield (drawing no AOO)?

Awkward, I'd be tempted to say "no" but "draw a weapon" and "ready or loose a shield" are both actions that neither provoke an AoO and can be combined with a move.

If the character is proficient with two weapons (and most PC classes are aren't they?) then I think I'd allow it as a move action without any AoO being provoked.

I guess though some might call unstrapping the shield as a "retrieve a stored item" action as it's more involved than just pulling a sword from it's scabbard. If so then it would provoke an AoO.

One of those GM decisions I guess.....

 

[slaughterj]

If the character is proficient with two weapons (and most PC classes are aren't they?) then I think I'd allow it as a move action without any AoO being provoked.

Which is exactly why I came to my conclusion.

I guess though some might call unstrapping the shield as a "retrieve a stored item" action as it's more involved than just pulling a sword from it's scabbard. If so then it would provoke an AoO.

But I see no such distinction between strapping to the arm (regular use) and strapping to the shoulder (two-handed weapon use) made in the book with regard to "donning" a shield, so presumably "donning" a shield either way just takes a move action and can be combined with drawing a weapon, so it seems logical to me that adjusting from one donned position to another shouldn't be any more involved.

 

[Oly]

But I see no such distinction between strapping to the arm (regular use) and strapping to the shoulder (two-handed weapon use) made in the book with regard to "donning" a shield, so presumably "donning" a shield either way just takes a move action and can be combined with drawing a weapon, so it seems logical to me that adjusting from one donned position to another shouldn't be any more involved.

Good point, though I imagine the strapping involved for a shoulder is more substantial than that for an arm the rules make no difference.

Thinking some more though I think I would say that it takes more than a move action.

Taking the shield off (sheathing a weapon) and putting it on the arm (drawing a weapon) could be combined into one "move" action. I'd think that dealing with the unstrapping is more complicated than just swinging the shield into action from storage on your back.

Then drawing the sword would have to be taken as the next action.

All debatable though.....

 

[bjorntfh]

If you've got BAB of 1+ you get the drawing a sword for free actually.

 

[slaughterj]

Donning or removing a shield is a move action, with no distinction made about how it is being donned. I think if you can strap on a shield as a move action (or part of a move action along with drawing a sword), then a brief loosening of the strap to slide it from shoulder to arm would be about the same. Certainly debatable, but I think reasonable, and makes for an easy rule - switch shield location is just another way of "donning" a shield.

 

[argo]

Though not addressed, presumably it is reasonable for the Gunderman to free-action drop the pike, and use a move action to both draw the sword AND adjust the shield (drawing no AOO)?

What you are trying to do here is use 3 free actions durring the same round.

As a general rule a character may take at least 1 free action per turn. After the first free action the number, and type, of free actions he is permited is explicitly left as a judgment call on the part of the GM. The reason the rules leave this up to the individual GM is because different types of "free actions" varry widly (from speaking a few words to drawing a weapon) and the number of perumtations of combined free actions forms a huge set.

Personally, I would not allow a PC to ready a weapon and shield as part of a single move (combined with actual movement) unless he also had the Quick Draw feat. I would let him make a double move and do this.

Hope that helps.

 

[slaughterj]

Though not addressed, presumably it is reasonable for the Gunderman to free-action drop the pike, and use a move action to both draw the sword AND adjust the shield (drawing no AOO)?

What you are trying to do here is use 3 free actions durring the same round.

As a general rule a character may take at least 1 free action per turn. After the first free action the number, and type, of free actions he is permited is explicitly left as a judgment call on the part of the GM. The reason the rules leave this up to the individual GM is because different types of "free actions" varry widly (from speaking a few words to drawing a weapon) and the number of perumtations of combined free actions forms a huge set.

Personally, I would not allow a PC to ready a weapon and shield as part of a single move (combined with actual movement) unless he also had the Quick Draw feat. I would let him make a double move and do this.

Hope that helps.

Actually you are incorrect on some of that. Donning a shield is a move action as a default. If you have a +1 BAB and the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (without the Quick Draw feat), you can draw two weapons for free during a move action, or you can draw a weapon and ready (or loosen) a shield for free during the move action. Check out the Actions in Combat Table (PG 234-235, footnote 4).

 

[argo]

Actually you are incorrect on some of that. Donning a shield is a move action as a default. If you have a +1 BAB and the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (without the Quick Draw feat), you can draw two weapons for free during a move action, or you can draw a weapon and ready (or loosen) a shield for free during the move action. Check out the Actions in Combat Table (PG 234-235, footnote 4).

All this I know, if this wern't the case then what you proposed would be really illegal instead of just a gray area :wink:

The critical point here is that the number of Free Actions a character can take is left as a GM judgment call without reservation. As a GM my gut says "no" on this one. YMMV

 

[Trodax]

Are you talking about a Gunderman with or without the Gunderland Pike-And-Shield Fighting feat? Because with the feat, I don't think he'd need to adjust the shield at all.

 

[slaughterj]

Personally, I would not allow a PC to ready a weapon and shield as part of a single move (combined with actual movement) unless he also had the Quick Draw feat. I would let him make a double move and do this.

My point was that this was incorrect. I do understand that what I am proposing is a gray area because it is not addressed in the book, but I think readying a weapon and adjusting the shield from one position to another is basically the same as readying a weapon and a shield, which can be done as a move action together or both done for free while moving when you have a +1 BAB and the Two-Weapon Fighting feat.

 

[argo]

But what you seem to be missing is that you can't ready both a weapon and shield as one action.

Ready a weapon is a move action with a special rule that you can perform it as a free action while moving if you have +1 BAB and another special rule that you can ready two weapons at the same time if you have TWF feat.

Read a shield is also a move action with a special rule that you can perform it as a fre action while moving if you have +1 BAB.

So to ready a weapon and a shield requires two actions no matter how you cut it. There is no "ready a weapon and a shield" action. And the shield doesn't fall under the TWF clause of ready a weapon because it is not a weapon, it is a shield.

Now, because both these actions have that special rule about using them as free actions we come to the question "can I use these two free actions at the same time?" To which the answer is: the GM is the sole judge of how many free actions a character can take a round.

At my table the answer is no. YMMV

Later.

 

[Foxworthy]

Now, because both these actions have that special rule about using them as free actions we come to the question "can I use these two free actions at the same time?" To which the answer is: the GM is the sole judge of how many free actions a character can take a round.

The footnote specificly says that you can ready one of the actions for free as part of a move. So you would need two move actions to do it for free. Though having the feat quickdraw would make it one move action.

 

[slaughterj]

But what you seem to be missing is that you can't ready both a weapon and shield as one action.

Ready a weapon is a move action with a special rule that you can perform it as a free action while moving if you have +1 BAB and another special rule that you can ready two weapons at the same time if you have TWF feat.

Read a shield is also a move action with a special rule that you can perform it as a fre action while moving if you have +1 BAB.

So to ready a weapon and a shield requires two actions no matter how you cut it. There is no "ready a weapon and a shield" action. And the shield doesn't fall under the TWF clause of ready a weapon because it is not a weapon, it is a shield.

Now, because both these actions have that special rule about using them as free actions we come to the question "can I use these two free actions at the same time?" To which the answer is: the GM is the sole judge of how many free actions a character can take a round.

At my table the answer is no. YMMV

Later.

A shield is a weapon. You can shield bash with it. So as a weapon in addition to the sword in your hand, presumably you can ready a sword and shield for free when you move if you have a +1 BAB and Two-Weapon Fighting feat (which most fighting types have).

 

[Foxworthy]

But what you seem to be missing is that you can't ready both a weapon and shield as one action.

Ready a weapon is a move action with a special rule that you can perform it as a free action while moving if you have +1 BAB and another special rule that you can ready two weapons at the same time if you have TWF feat.

Read a shield is also a move action with a special rule that you can perform it as a fre action while moving if you have +1 BAB.

So to ready a weapon and a shield requires two actions no matter how you cut it. There is no "ready a weapon and a shield" action. And the shield doesn't fall under the TWF clause of ready a weapon because it is not a weapon, it is a shield.

Now, because both these actions have that special rule about using them as free actions we come to the question "can I use these two free actions at the same time?" To which the answer is: the GM is the sole judge of how many free actions a character can take a round.

At my table the answer is no. YMMV

Later.

A shield is a weapon. You can shield bash with it. So as a weapon in addition to the sword in your hand, presumably you can ready a sword and shield for free when you move if you have a +1 BAB and Two-Weapon Fighting feat (which most fighting types have).

Then why bother having readya shield as an action at all? If it was the same as pulling a weapon. Shields are not weapons though the share some qualities of weapons. The description od shields does say that when used to make an attack a shield is either a light or one handed weapon... It doesn't state anywhere that they are treated as weapons for the purposes of drawing them in combat. In fact the ready a shield option shows that they are not treated as weapons.

 

[Trodax]

I agree that a shield does not count as a weapon; why would you otherwise have 'Draw a Weapon' and 'Ready a Shield' as two separate actions? I would also not, for example, allow someone with the Quickdraw feat to strap a shield to their arm really fast.

Therefore, to draw your weapon and ready your shield you would need two move actions, just like foxworthy said:

The footnote specificly says that you can ready one of the actions for free as part of a move. So you would need two move actions to do it for free. Though having the feat quickdraw would make it one move action.

 

[slaughterj]

But what you seem to be missing is that you can't ready both a weapon and shield as one action.

Ready a weapon is a move action with a special rule that you can perform it as a free action while moving if you have +1 BAB and another special rule that you can ready two weapons at the same time if you have TWF feat.

Read a shield is also a move action with a special rule that you can perform it as a fre action while moving if you have +1 BAB.

So to ready a weapon and a shield requires two actions no matter how you cut it. There is no "ready a weapon and a shield" action. And the shield doesn't fall under the TWF clause of ready a weapon because it is not a weapon, it is a shield.

Now, because both these actions have that special rule about using them as free actions we come to the question "can I use these two free actions at the same time?" To which the answer is: the GM is the sole judge of how many free actions a character can take a round.

At my table the answer is no. YMMV

Later.

A shield is a weapon. You can shield bash with it. So as a weapon in addition to the sword in your hand, presumably you can ready a sword and shield for free when you move if you have a +1 BAB and Two-Weapon Fighting feat (which most fighting types have).

Then why bother having readya shield as an action at all? If it was the same as pulling a weapon. Shields are not weapons though the share some qualities of weapons. The description od shields does say that when used to make an attack a shield is either a light or one handed weapon... It doesn't state anywhere that they are treated as weapons for the purposes of drawing them in combat. In fact the ready a shield option shows that they are not treated as weapons.

Just throwing that out there for consideration.

Here's the point, during a move, anyone WITHOUT the Two-Weapon Fighting feat but has a +1 BAB can as a free action either (a) draw a weapon or (b) ready a shield. Further, during a move, anyone WITH the Two-Weapon Fighting feat and has a +1 BAB can as a free action draw 2 weapons. Now we already saw that drawing a weapon and readying a shield either could be done for free with a +1 BAB during a move action, so they appear to be roughly equivalent in time actions. Therefore, it seems quite reasonable to allow someone to draw a weapon and ready a shield in the same time as it would take to draw two weapons, i.e., to do both for free during a move action if one has the Two-Weapon Fighting feat and a +1 BAB.

Additionally, if you don't do this, you yet again favor the two-handed weapon or two-weapon fighter over the weapon-and-shield fighter, and given all the benefits the former (especially the two-handed weapon fighter) gets over the weapon-and-shield fighter, I'd rather not penalize the latter further in comparison.

As a side note, do you think it takes any longer to ready a buckler than it does to draw a weapon?

 

[argo]

Now, because both these actions have that special rule about using them as free actions we come to the question "can I use these two free actions at the same time?" To which the answer is: the GM is the sole judge of how many free actions a character can take a round.

The footnote specificly says that you can ready one of the actions for free as part of a move. So you would need two move actions to do it for free. Though having the feat quickdraw would make it one move action.

While I agree with your conclusion (for the reasons stated) I also do not believe that the RAW are clear on this point. I'm willing to leave this one up to the individual GM.

 

[argo]

Here's the point, during a move, anyone WITHOUT the Two-Weapon Fighting feat but has a +1 BAB can as a free action either (a) draw a weapon or (b) ready a shield. Further, during a move, anyone WITH the Two-Weapon Fighting feat and has a +1 BAB can as a free action draw 2 weapons. Now we already saw that drawing a weapon and readying a shield either could be done for free with a +1 BAB during a move action, so they appear to be roughly equivalent in time actions. Therefore, it seems quite reasonable to allow someone to draw a weapon and ready a shield in the same time as it would take to draw two weapons, i.e., to do both for free during a move action if one has the Two-Weapon Fighting feat and a +1 BAB.

...

As a side note, do you think it takes any longer to ready a buckler than it does to draw a weapon?

While readying a (one) shield may take the same time as drawing two weapons that does not mean they are equivalent mix-n-match actions. Logically readying a shiled should require both hands, the one griping the shield and the other hand to strap it down. Drawing two weapons OTOH requires you put one hand on each weapon and draw both at the same time.

So I wouldn't let a player ready shield and weapon w/o quick draw.

However, it is of course true that the RAW do not specify what you are doing with you hands while performing these actions. That level of detail falls well below the threshold of resolutioun for the d20 system. Thus it becomes a GM call. As a GM does it not bother you that a person would pratcialy need three arms to pull this stunt off? :? Then let you players do it, it probably will not break the system.

Later.

 

[slaughterj]

Here's the point, during a move, anyone WITHOUT the Two-Weapon Fighting feat but has a +1 BAB can as a free action either (a) draw a weapon or (b) ready a shield. Further, during a move, anyone WITH the Two-Weapon Fighting feat and has a +1 BAB can as a free action draw 2 weapons. Now we already saw that drawing a weapon and readying a shield either could be done for free with a +1 BAB during a move action, so they appear to be roughly equivalent in time actions. Therefore, it seems quite reasonable to allow someone to draw a weapon and ready a shield in the same time as it would take to draw two weapons, i.e., to do both for free during a move action if one has the Two-Weapon Fighting feat and a +1 BAB.

...

As a side note, do you think it takes any longer to ready a buckler than it does to draw a weapon?

While readying a (one) shield may take the same time as drawing two weapons that does not mean they are equivalent mix-n-match actions. Logically readying a shiled should require both hands, the one griping the shield and the other hand to strap it down. Drawing two weapons OTOH requires you put one hand on each weapon and draw both at the same time.

Note, I said readying a weapon or a shield are the same for a +1 BAB person.

As for readying a shield requiring two hands as opposed to one, a buckler likely doesn't, and on the other hand, a two-handed weapon likely requires you to be using your two hands to ready which seems longer than readying a buckler.

I think we all agree that the RAW are unclear on this subject, so I think a GM could choose to go either way on this without further clarification from Mongoose.