Ground To Starship Scale Combat

Solomani666

Mongoose
.


I am seriously considering reducing the the ship to ground combat ratio from 50:1 to perhaps 25:1 or even 20:1 IMTU.

Given the current rules, a Fusion Z gun or an Orbital Defence Cannon will do "0" damage to a parked starship.

If a single Orbital Defence Cannon can not penetrate a starship hull then just what are they making missile Kinetic Kill Penetrators out of, and why are they not firing something similar from Orbital Defence Cannons?

A simple Free Trader could take out a tank company especially if it stagger-fired each of its triple beam laser turrets allowing each turret to fire one of its lasers every combat round.

Any suggestions as to a new ratio?


.
 
For me, when I want simulation gaming I use systems specifically designed for it. For me, Traveller is for role playing. Others may be able to speak of the alternate more tabletop simulation like combat systems that have come out for Traveller. I believe Mongoose Tripwire may be something along these lines? Perhaps this is where better ideas than mine may be found?

Lets start off with what I think is a commonly shared opinion that the basic rules are quite unsatisfactory for simulating large scale combat, especially with a combination of troops vehicles and ships.

That said, I try to find options that don't alter rules before making changes.

Note that, as I said already, I don't use Traveller for combat simulations so everything is just some ideas and concepts and not even well thought out let alone play tested. Perhaps it will give someone some ideas though.

First concept(rules based):
Solomani666 said:
Given the current rules, a Fusion Z gun or an Orbital Defence Cannon will do "0" damage to a parked starship.
The Orbital Defense Cannon can do 20d6 damage. Average of 70 points. At 50:1 this could still be a point of damage and a point of damage is all that is needed to get a single hit.

Before you get into the whole that isn't enough to penetrate the armor issue...

The weapon has Ultimate-AP and ignores a number of points of armour equal to five times the number of dice it rolls for damage. That is 20dice or 100 points of armor. If you apply the 50:1 to this too, that does drop it to 2 points.

Some ships have little to no armor, like a Heavy freighter or even a corsair, but for an example of a Free Trader which happens to have the same armor of a mercenary cruiser, they do have 4 points of armor. Do I expect a one shot kill from a single defensive canon? Not me. How about at max damage? 20x6 = 120 points At 50:1 that is 2.4 points if we don't round - is there a rule that says anything about rounding? With 2 points of armor penetration... That is .4 damage. Consult table, hmmm there is a line for 0 damage. There is a line for 1-4 damage. It's not uncommon that one has to be a GM and make a ruling. Rule that any fractional damage over 0 equals a hit? Ok, maybe I'm stretching it, but this single weapon is so close to scoring a hit on a ship with 4 armor.

(I underlined the above to point out that a free trader, especially armed, is not just a cargo ship. It's meant to be able to hold it's own against similarly sized combatant ships and thus it is not a surprise that they are not easily damaged and can take out ground units easily.)

First concept + Mercenary (rules based):
it is possible for multiple weapons to all target the starship simultaneously, and the cumulative effect can inflict damage. Every additional ground weapon beyond the first can add half its damage dice to the total before dividing the total by 50 in order to calculate damage.
So, instead of a single defense canon, how about a group of defense canons?

The point is that I think it is quite possible with or without some imaginative use of the rules to turn away that Free Trader with a small group of these weapons. Perhaps no house ruling alteration of the 50:1 ratio needed. A large group of these weapons could possibly make even something more substantial think twice about how impervious their vessel is.

Second Concept (Some creativity but not altering rules)
Lets start out with some basics and some terms I'll be using.

1) For ships, a combat turn lasts six minutes. I'll call combatants that use six minute rounds, well, "ships".
2) For troops and I believe combat vehicles a combat turn lasts six seconds. I'll call combatants that use six second rounds "ground units".

I've seen many discussions about the damage ratio between ships and ground units but what about the difference in the time for a combat round?
Should ground units act 60times for every ship action?

If so, one possibility is instead of modifying the damage ratio how about allowing the ground units to accumulate damage every 6 seconds until they have a complete ship combat round, then divide by 50.

So what if this means some guy with a dagger can possibly damage a ship. In role playing terms, give someone 6 minutes unhindered to find some week point and perhaps they can take out a sensor or damage a turret or cut a fuel line or pry off a panel.

Second Concept + Mercenary(Some creativity)
Ok, so you thought 60 rounds for ground troops was a bit much? From Mercenary we get:
It is worth noting that starship weapons are not designed for engaging ground targets and so their rate of fire is painfully slow, able to fire weapons only once every three Combat rounds
So maybe you make it 3 rounds of ground combat combined firing for every one ship firing?
 
I have often just tried to go the 1:1 route for ease of use; eg, a orbital defence gun, tank's main armament, missile, etc., just damage a ship the same as vise versa. Part of this I just going back to reality, such as a tank's hull-structure and armor are one and the same, the only two things that need to be known are 1) can it knock a tank out? and 2) what is the crew survivability? "Ships" should be similar, with armored ones being a monocoque like tanks; though I don't really fiddle with the rules too much, just saying that AFV/Vehicle mounts just represent shorter range weapons.
 
I been leaning towards a 15 or 16 to 1 because the space defense laser from the vehicle upgrade manual is 16d6 and I think that a SPACE defense laser should do damage at a spaceship scale.

Also if using mercenary rules you divide the damage dice so a 20d6 weapon does .4d6 damage which if you use standard rolling rules rounds to 0d6, especially in RPG's where you usually round down. This means you need 4 orbital defense guns firing in coordination to get to the equal of a beam laser. At 16 to 1 you need 1 cannon get to 1d6 with 6 pts armour pen which is similar to a rail gun which has similar range limitations.

But I my opinion the issue comes when you have space fighters vs Air fighters. The Air craft need to out number the space fighters by a considerable amount to have a chance to take a squad down with acceptable losses.

A grav fighter mounts Tac missiles of air-to-air, they do 9d6 damage, an average of 31.5. Assuming 2 pts of armour on a fighter you need 150 points of damage to get a single hit. That totals 9 missiles on average because each beyond the first only contributes half of its damage. That is 9 hits mind you not just 9 shots. Which mind you each fighter only has 2 Air-to-Air missiles in it's load out. at 16 to 1 each missile would average no damage alone but 1 missiles together average a single hit. The advantage is still very much to the space fighter because of it's improved range of operation but it can no longer just wipe out much larger air defense forces.
 
Using the idea of a ground combat round being 6 seconds and a ship combat round being 6 minutes, accumulating the ground combat damage and using the BARRAGE rules might make sense.

Treat the ground units as Barraging (is that a word?) the starship and keep adding up all those damage dice...
 
The other thing to consider is that if the Orbital Defence system is doing damage at ground scale of 20D6, why is there only one cannon? Following the example with the mass of imperial marines firing at a starship, 3 massed hits at 60D6 divided by 50 round down nicely gives you a 1D6 at starship level...
 
Personally I use an 8:1 ratio. This keeps lightly armoured ships all but impervious to small arms and even unarmoured ships largely resistant to small arms. The main reason I use this ratio are the clues given in the CSC and Supp5-6 for vehicle-mounted laser cannons that cost MCr.1 and do 8d6...the similarity with a ship mounted beam laser (CRB p111) costing MCr.1 is quite apparent.
 
mr31337 said:
Personally I use an 8:1 ratio. This keeps lightly armoured ships all but impervious to small arms and even armoured ships largely resistant to small arms. The main reason I use this ratio are the clues given in the CSC and Supp5-6 for vehicle-mounted laser cannons that cost MCr.1 and do 8d6...the similarity with a ship mounted beam laser (CRB p111) costing MCr.1 is quite apparent.

Hum, I missed that, though it isn't a bad ratio....
 
Back
Top