Ground scale conversion for WaW?

[Alexb83]

Is it doable to change the rules with a simple inch for inch conversion to 15mm?

Arguably the basing for infantry from FoW or BGG (the rules I play) aren't very condusive for 1 model=1 man which is where WaW seems to sit, but... any thoughts?

BGG for instance has a simple conversion for 15mm and 20mm in terms of basing/ranges.

 

[Agis]

Is it doable to change the rules with a simple inch for inch conversion to 15mm?

Yes! IMO even keeping the inches will work, the gun ranges look more realistic then.

Arguably the basing for infantry from FoW or BGG (the rules I play) aren't very condusive for 1 model=1 man which is where WaW seems to sit, but... any thoughts?

:shock: What is BGG?
And - Sorry I do not understand the question...

BGG for instance has a simple conversion for 15mm and 20mm in terms of basing/ranges.

In which way?

 

[hithero]

Is it doable to change the rules with a simple inch for inch conversion to 15mm?

Arguably the basing for infantry from FoW or BGG (the rules I play) aren't very condusive for 1 model=1 man which is where WaW seems to sit, but... any thoughts?

BGG for instance has a simple conversion for 15mm and 20mm in terms of basing/ranges.

Base sizes do not matter in WAW and you do not really need to change the measurements either as there is no ground scale. If you feel you need to change you could just say 1cm = 1" for 15mm, I would not change for 20mm games.

 

[Alexb83]

Is it doable to change the rules with a simple inch for inch conversion to 15mm?

Yes! IMO even keeping the inches will work, the gun ranges look more realistic then.

Arguably the basing for infantry from FoW or BGG (the rules I play) aren't very condusive for 1 model=1 man which is where WaW seems to sit, but... any thoughts?

:shock: What is BGG?
And - Sorry I do not understand the question...

BGG for instance has a simple conversion for 15mm and 20mm in terms of basing/ranges.

In which way?

BGG is Battlegroup: Panzergrenadier, a set of gaming rules. It operates at (as the name suggests) a scale more focused on battlegroups than platoon level combat (where I would place WaW). For example, infantry is based 3 men to a 1x1 inch square, representing a section of infantry. 16 squares (of mixed sorts) make a company.
4-5 tank models will make a company, with each 'tank' representing a number of tanks and so forth.

In those rules there are simply 2 different ground scales for 15mm and 20mm respectively - for each 'unit type' there are two different sets of movement ranges, and for each weapon - one for the smaller models, one for the larger.

 

[hithero]

Is it doable to change the rules with a simple inch for inch conversion to 15mm?

Yes! IMO even keeping the inches will work, the gun ranges look more realistic then.

Arguably the basing for infantry from FoW or BGG (the rules I play) aren't very condusive for 1 model=1 man which is where WaW seems to sit, but... any thoughts?

:shock: What is BGG?
And - Sorry I do not understand the question...

BGG for instance has a simple conversion for 15mm and 20mm in terms of basing/ranges.

In which way?

BGG is Battlegroup: Panzergrenadier, a set of gaming rules. It operates at (as the name suggests) a scale more focused on battlegroups than platoon level combat (where I would place WaW). For example, infantry is based 3 men to a 1x1 inch square, representing a section of infantry. 16 squares (of mixed sorts) make a company.
4-5 tank models will make a company, with each 'tank' representing a number of tanks and so forth.

In those rules there are simply 2 different ground scales for 15mm and 20mm respectively - for each 'unit type' there are two different sets of movement ranges, and for each weapon - one for the smaller models, one for the larger.

In this case you could just keep you men/model ratio's as they are so your base of 3 men just act like a base of 1 man and just remove the whole base. You will of course need 10 bases or so to form your units.

 

[Alexb83]

Yes, but the weapon ranges would be grossly out of scale for 15mm models.

 

[hithero]

Ifyou don't like, then convert to whatever suits your taste, just keep things constant.

 

[n815e]

The ranges wouldn't be out of scale. If anything, they would be closer to in-scale.

 

[Alexb83]

Based on a straight 'keep it the same' a 15mm man would be moving 41 odd feet per turn.

A 25mm/1inch tall man would moving 36feet.

A 48 inch range gun would be shooting a little shy of 500 feet or c. 150m

Shouldn't everything be reduced by c. 30% in order to keep it in scale with the height of the typical infantryman?

 

[hithero]

Not really, there is no defined scale in WAW, you can call 1" 6' or you can call it 60' it doesn't matter. The distances used are to give a good game on a normal tabletop, nothing more. If you have 15mm troops on a 3' table then by all means reduce the distances or if you fight on a standard 6'x4' keep them the same or reduce - its up to you, it makes no difference to the game.

 

[weasel_fierce]

On a normal gaming table, with 15mm guys, you should pretty much be able to fire at anything in LOS, ala Crossfire.

I'd say just keep the ranges.

If you want to use a smaller table, then just use CM instead. Cant see why it wouldnt work, though a few things could get fiddly

 

[Desiato]

When playing with different scales, it may be appropriate to adjust the rules for structure damage.
Otherwise it may be too easy to knock-out bunkers in 15mm.

 

[Alexb83]

Not really, there is no defined scale in WAW, you can call 1" 6' or you can call it 60' it doesn't matter. The distances used are to give a good game on a normal tabletop, nothing more. If you have 15mm troops on a 3' table then by all means reduce the distances or if you fight on a standard 6'x4' keep them the same or reduce - its up to you, it makes no difference to the game.

And yet all the weapon ranges have been based off a solid ground scale (see the MG42 range discussion) and historical performance figures.

If you make the men smaller with the objective being to play larger scale battles, but don't change the movement rules or the weapon ranges, it isn't going to 'fit'.

All of a sudden you have men who can shoot 5 miles with an assault rifle, or paras who can't shoot over the wingspan of their Hamilcar glider.

 

[hithero]

No, not really, just visualise a different ground scale 1"=50' instead of 1"=25' or whatever if you need to. Physical on table measurements concerning gun ranges do not have to change at all. Not changing distances for 20mm models and 15mm models will not suddenly give a rifle a 5 mile range - don't see where you get that from.

 

[Alexb83]

Sigh - if you were to use a model infantryman 1mm tall without changing the unit statistics, 4 inches movement would be 25 times larger than it would be for a 25mm model.

Similarly, if you were to use a model 250mm tall, all of a sudden the average man wouldn't be able to move a single step every turn, and his bullets would literally not shoot pas his own nose.

Exactly my point to this thread was to determine an appropriate change in ground scale - your assertation that there is no defined scale is simply wrong - there is! Everything is scaled against the size of the men. Calling one inch 60 feet would immediately make every model man 35.4feet tall at 25mm scale. The whole idea here is to scale back to 15mm so that you can get more happening on a table and play 'larger scale' games.

I'll simply have to go and do the maths myself.

 

[hithero]

But we are not using the extremes you keep quoting, of course you would need to adjust rules if using 1mm high models or 5" high models! we are talking about the difference between 15mm and 20 mm scale models, the rules even recommend using 20 or 28mm models with no chage in measurements. Please do the math, you will not find a constant ground/height/range scale within the rules. and if you are not happy, then do as we have all said and adjust the distances as you see fit.

Done one for you as a start.
According to Wiki the lee-enfield has an effective range of 500m.
15mm is said to be 1/100 scale = 50cm range.
20mm is 1/72 scale = 69cm range
Game range = 24" or near enough 60cm
Rifles effective range is bang in the middle of the 2 scales, so where do we go from there? deduct 15% from all ranges for 15mm and add it for 20mm models or do we say that effective range can vary a few meters up or down? What about maximum range that is 4x that distance, should your 15mm rifles have a 2m range instead?

And what about time scale, surely movement distance would be related to the time scale of a turn, but what is it? How can we tell when a 2lb AT gun has the same ROF as a 88mm in a Tiger?

 

[Rabidchild]

Sigh - if you were to use a model infantryman 1mm tall without changing the unit statistics, 4 inches movement would be 25 times larger than it would be for a 25mm model.

I don't see that there's anything wrong with that. It seems like all that would change in scale is the amount of time to which we can equate a game turn.

That said, yes, your giant model hypothesis does break the system

 

[weasel_fierce]

I have a strong feeling that the ranges were assigned arbitrarily, rather than a strict "1 inch equals X meters" formula.

 

[DM]

That said, yes, your giant model hypothesis does break the system

Its important to remember that vertical scale (i.e. the height of the miniature) and horizontal scale (i.e. the "ground scale" used by the rules) is completely independent. The height of the miniature used has no bearing on the ground scale (extreme examples of 250mm tall figures excepted of course ). It really doesn't make any difference whether you use 28, 25 or 15mm models. You can use exactly the same distances. On the ground scales calcs, Hithero a minor mistook here:

Done one for you as a start.
According to Wiki the lee-enfield has an effective range of 500m.
15mm is said to be 1/100 scale = 50cm range.
20mm is 1/72 scale = 69cm range
Game range = 24" or near enough 60cm

You are an order of magnitude out here:

Effective range 500 metres.
Scale 1/100 = 5 metres, not 50cm
Scale 1/72 = 6.9 metres

The mere fact that there is a 10x multiplication factor in here makes the difference in using 15 or 25 (or even 6mm) figures essentially irrelevant. Play with 2-3mm figures and you are working with figures that match the ground scale in this example - as long as the assumption regarding the link between game range and effective range is correct.

Of course it is easy to over analyse, in whic case remember the Agis mantra "Its a game, not a simulation"

 

[Agis]

Of course it is easy to over analyse, in whic case remember the Agis mantra "Its a game, not a simulation"

So say we all!
:wink: