Green Fire (Dilgar stuff)

[Davesaint]

Ok, on the Ochlavita-C you changed the Range 10 pulsars to 8 dice, and elimintated the range 8 pulsars and dropped the TL. Plus eliminated the Aft Bolters for 2 additional AD of it's beam. I'm ok with that I think.

I am ok with the carrier too, although you did not indicate what PL this is.


Sorry, but the Armageddon hull is just wrong. It is not in the flavor of the race. It should have Mass Drivers, it should have less dice of the bolters and the SH Bolters. It should not be able to kill an Armageddon level hull in 1 turn.


Dave

 

[Slightly Norse John]

The problem with that is, you're actually giving a pretty good description of the Mankhat.
It already does all of those things, and has all of those things. 10AD of heavy bolter in each arc, for a start- the baseline is very high. This ship has to be better, enough so to if not exactly justify then at least make not unfeasible it's cost.
The Superdreadnought follows the same naming scheme, but- side trip back to the 20th Century; PZkpfW VI 'Tiger'. Heavy tank- also, to a large extent, a blind alley, piling on more and more metal until it had the speed of a maimed snail. PZkpfW IV, Sherman, T-34 et al, medium tanks, lighter, differently built, and in time evolved into things like the Leopard-2A5. Wehrmacht vs. Bundeswehr would be a intriguing if very brief fight, and I for one would not be betting on the swastika boys.
The point is the Dilgar already have what amount to two separate basic lines of ship evolution, assault ships and strike cruisers, and the dreadnoughts are an interbreeding of the two. The genealogy of that works better than the chronology, that I have to admit.
The Tuvathrakur is a hybrid whose dominant side is the strike cruiser half, unsurprisingly when I say my usually deployed fleet consists almost exclusively of strike cruisers. The drivers- technically, the SHBs may qualify; their design ancestry is exactly that. Simply put, an MDC sabot firing a conventional bolter round. I suggested that as an alternative fire mode for drivers anyway- it's on page 1 of the thread, and it is a suggestion. There is an earlier, weaker version of them there somewhere, but the SDN's superheavies are the second generation, redesigned specifically for the job.

Many experiences with jammy Targrath have gone a long way to convince me there is nothing too big to be blown up. The Victory actually bought it on the third turn, after losing bridge, engines and damage control on the second; it wasn't quite that easy. One superheavy shot did split and produce 6-5 and 6-6 crits, admittedly.

The Carrier is skirmish, and the Ochlavita-C I'm starting to think is a fraction over- the quad pulsars being swapped out for pulsars seemed fair enough at the time, maybe it should be light pulsars, range 8.

Still to come are the two Wahant derivatives.

 

[TenaciousB]

I am definitely loving all this Dilgar love! :lol:

I do reckon, however, the Super Heavy Bolters are broken; I would leave the MoD stuff as it is - quadruple damage is nasty!!!

I sort of imagine them as a modified Heavy Bolter round, gaining the Super AP ability, and maybe increasing the range by a few inches - basically, just increase the chances of actually hitting, rather than hitting with greater force.

Of course, for total galaxy domination, you could consider the SHB to be exactly the same as HBs, but give it the Precise trait, giving a greater chance of the triple damage happening.

Just some stuff to think about - keep up the good work!! :wink:

 

[Davesaint]

The problem with that is, you're actually giving a pretty good description of the Mankhat.
It already does all of those things, and has all of those things. 10AD of heavy bolter in each arc, for a start- the baseline is very high. This ship has to be better, enough so to if not exactly justify then at least make not unfeasible it's cost.
The Superdreadnought follows the same naming scheme, but- side trip back to the 20th Century; PZkpfW VI 'Tiger'. Heavy tank- also, to a large extent, a blind alley, piling on more and more metal until it had the speed of a maimed snail. PZkpfW IV, Sherman, T-34 et al, medium tanks, lighter, differently built, and in time evolved into things like the Leopard-2A5. Wehrmacht vs. Bundeswehr would be a intriguing if very brief fight, and I for one would not be betting on the swastika boys.
The point is the Dilgar already have what amount to two separate basic lines of ship evolution, assault ships and strike cruisers, and the dreadnoughts are an interbreeding of the two. The genealogy of that works better than the chronology, that I have to admit.
The Tuvathrakur is a hybrid whose dominant side is the strike cruiser half, unsurprisingly when I say my usually deployed fleet consists almost exclusively of strike cruisers. The drivers- technically, the SHBs may qualify; their design ancestry is exactly that. Simply put, an MDC sabot firing a conventional bolter round. I suggested that as an alternative fire mode for drivers anyway- it's on page 1 of the thread, and it is a suggestion. There is an earlier, weaker version of them there somewhere, but the SDN's superheavies are the second generation, redesigned specifically for the job.

Many experiences with jammy Targrath have gone a long way to convince me there is nothing too big to be blown up. The Victory actually bought it on the third turn, after losing bridge, engines and damage control on the second; it wasn't quite that easy. One superheavy shot did split and produce 6-5 and 6-6 crits, admittedly.

The Carrier is skirmish, and the Ochlavita-C I'm starting to think is a fraction over- the quad pulsars being swapped out for pulsars seemed fair enough at the time, maybe it should be light pulsars, range 8.

Still to come are the two Wahant derivatives.

Well if you are comparing them to german WW2 tanks, the Targrath is the Panther and the Armageddon ship would be a King Tiger. The Idea of the Bolter round fired through the Mass Driver is understandable. If you were to compare it to an AP vs Sabot round you have already upgraded it by going to Triple Damage(more stopping power and SAP for better targeting systems). If you are drawing the conclusion to the modern version of the Leopard2, then you have got it all wrong. This hull would be based of the Tikrit. Fast, maneuverable, 1 big fast firing gun, 2-3 small short ranged guns. No Missles. I still think the Large Dilgar ship is way overgunned.

Dave

 

[Shadow Queen]

for armadeddon idhave a weapon of mass distruction

like something that wipes out the population without harming the bulidings

 

[Slightly Norse John]

What, you mean like Virus Bombs, that you can find on the Raid- level Rohric? :lol: Already covered, and useful. Now, as clarified under Armageddon, they can be used to attack troops or emplacements- either we're talking about Xenocrete- eating bacteria, or simply contaminating the emplacement and making it unusable; both could work.

Dave, I wasn't intending that close an analogy. To abstract it out, two separate lines of development, one shooting for massive power straight away (assault ships), one more modest and balanced, that begins relatively modestly (strike cruisers, although it strains credibility to describe the Targrath as 'modest') and ultimately arrives at something at least as nasty. If you want a specific parallel with the Dilgar SDN, unfortunately the closest is probably H-44.

In any case, this is the problem.
Mankhat class Dreadnought; War (2224-2232)
Speed 7, turn 1/45, Jump Point
Hull 6, damage 54/6, crew 56/8, troops 8, shuttles 2
Mass Driver- range 10, F, 10AD, AP Triple damage, Slow loading, Mass Driver
Disruptor Torpedoes- range 20, F, 8AD, AP Double damage Slow loading
Heavy Bolters- range 15, AP Double damage, 10AD each F, A, P, S
Light Pulsars- range 8, 6AD each F, A, P, S
Virus Bomb Racks; range 6, T, 8AD, Orbital Bomb

Yes, this is official. Page 15 of the Dilgar Imperium fleet book. How do you top that?
My Tuvathrakur gains significantly in damage and crew, adds a modest fighter complement, upgrades significantly the inner gun ring- from light to quad pulsars, loses 2AD of the outer ring of heavy bolters in three arcs to gain two forward, and loses drivers, torpedoes and virus bombs to mount a (misguided, massively ambitious) torpedo derivative and a rather interesting driver development. The only reason I attempted something as fundamentally warped as DPL's was that the superdreadnought was starting to look undergunned by comparison with two of it's ancestors.

 

[Slightly Norse John]

Wahant derivatives;

the carrier version, Wahavherat.
first conversions 2223- 2225, still Battle level;
Speed 5, turn 1/45, jump point- Hull 6, damage 45/8, crew 58/8, troops 8,
Shuttles 2, 8 Thorun flights, Carrier 4, Fleet Carrier
Disruptor Torpedoes- range 20, AP Double damage Slow loading; F, A, each 8AD
Heavy Bolters; range 15, F, 6AD, AP Double damage
Light Pulsars; range 8, F, A, P, S each 10AD
The torpedoes and pulsars remain in place, the bolters of the older (Slow-Loading) configuration get removed or upgraded to the standard version, the virus bombs are omitted more as an unjustifiable contamination risk to the ship itself than for space reasons, the drivers go for fighter bays (and some of the structural bracing goes for fighter direction centres, slight reduction in hits, increase in crew to represent the air group).
This is the slow carrier, designed to keep up with, and still delivering a large fraction of the firepower of, it's unconverted sisters and other assault ships.
Two problems; first, it's a very heavyweight ship, probably only kept back from war level by the slowness of it's drive systems- if it could choose the time and place of it's attack and direct the course of the battle, it probably would qualify. The other thing is, it starts to make the Garasoch look lightweight (and unnecessary) by comparison.
The solution I would prefer is to retcon the Garasoch into a genuine strike carrier, capable of keeping up with the lead elements of the fleet and providing fighter support to them.

Second Wahant descendant;
at this point, the only thing I'm sure of is the name- Wahavrul class.
Design procedure; first catch your Wahant. Then, basically, saw off the engines- including jump drive and power train, and it helps if you include the machinery control room at this point, too. Fit a small power unit and minimalist thrusters to the forward part, and add accommodation modules for maybe thirty thousand people. Basically, the main body of the former Wahant becomes an armed colony ship. That's not it.
The Wahavrul is the ship you build around the removed engine plant, and basically it's a prototype Strike Cruiser. Any suggestions?

 

[Ripple]

Dunno....read through a most of the thread and a lot of this seems to be a case of lets identify the races strengths and make them even stronger along those lines. You comments on the Garasoch seem to reflect that...let me make a better version, oh that invalidates the old one....let me redesign so it looks good in comparrison to the one I just made.

I agree that the Dilgar design along two lines...your terms are strike and assault I believe...but the strike line is limited. There is not a war level strike ship. Conversly there is not a skirmish level assault ship. This seems part of the balance of the race, removing it seems somewhat questionable. Sort of like if earth had good missle boats at every pl, would we ever face anything but?

Just a concern over the direction you have followed in your build ups of each line as a virtually stand alone fleet.

Ripple

 

[Shadow Queen]

not a virus bomb something like a Nuke that dont harm the buildings

 

[Slightly Norse John]

SQ;
it fits with the fluff, but the planetary assault rules are abstracted out to the point where buildings and people, and for that matter any form of civil or industrial use of the planet, is ignored.
Civilians do not actually exist as a rules term; there is only the defending fleet, the defence assets- patrol boats, defence satellites, ground emplacements and troops- and the planet itself.
In fluff, it fits. In the roleplaying game, it fits. In ACtA, you'd need to rewrite the planetary assault rules and large parts of the campaign system to make it fit.

Ripple;
the Garasoch in particular is a known- problem design, in the sense that a noticeable proportion of the players refuse or are reluctant to deploy it. It's not quite as bad as the Saggi (thank the Great Maker, nothing else is), more of a Kutai or a Rothan. Without something being done, and that probably is a speed increase (for which some of the other stats will have to be shaved down), it'll remain a marginal choice.

Making the Dilgar stronger is roughly comparable to doing a marathon on a pogo stick; I'm quite proud that you think I've managed it... :lol:
I actually do this sort of tinkering exercise on virtually every fleet. This one, I have to admit, I never expected to see the light of day, and it wasn't as much about increasing the strengths of the fleet as increasing the diversities. (Also about pouring cold water on the flaming on the Armageddon for the Dilgar thread.) My Dilgar force had boiled itself down to three ship types, effectively Jashakar (initiative sink, ELINT, assassinations), Omelos (flank cover and all round fire in the mosh, torps in the approach), Targrath (chief source of kaboom).
I wanted other ships that could broaden the tactical model, open up the game a bit. In order to actually do that, and avoid spawning an entire generation of Orestes-esque backwater choices, they had to have if not the same use- Garasoch apart, I think the closest I've come to duplicating an existing vessel is the Ochlavita-C- then at least the same general level of usefulness. Unfortunately, with the Dilgar that generally does mean a level of throw- weight somewhere between high and appalling.
The Nendrevath pulsar corvette, for instance, is up against the Jashakar, with it's EW systems and six dice of bolters, and the Rishekur, with it's massive speed, range-5 and range-10 bolters. Giving it eight pulsar dice didn't seem that much of a stretch. Twelve was probably too much.
There's still no Skirmish level assault ship. The fleet destroyer has the speed, hull and damage/crew values of a ship from the faster line of depvelopment. Considering how surprised the Dilgar were that the Rohric worked as well as it did, there wouldn't have been- or at the very least, it would have begun by plasma- torching apart captured Warbirds, and going 'how do they do that then?' Possibly they tried, certainly it didn't get done in time.
I don't actually like assault ships. I respect them as the closest ACtA has to the Vogon Constructor Fleet, (and I would be very surprised if that hadn't been mentioned at Mongoose Towers), as small mobile fortresses, but they're not warships. Siege machines, maybe.
The Dreadnoughts are hybrid strike/assault units, the Mishakur leaning to the Assault side, the Mankhat (by far my preferred of the two) the Strike, and my attempt to move beyond that (which I need to edit to reflect the changes to, now) follows on from the Mankhat. The one part of the ship's stats I'm surprised nobody commented on is the in service date; 2234. It would have finished trials and entered service two years after the designers, constructors and crew got turned into solar wind.

 

[Shadow Queen]

was just throwing in my 5 credits

 

[Slightly Norse John]

In theory, you're right; and I have to wonder if a full scale, building on Bax' back, Dilgar War Campaign Book might not have to expand the system to make exactly that sort of distinction.

Wahavrul- class Assault Cruiser (note the name confusion.)
Battle, 2227?
Speed 9, turn 1/45, Jump Point (far lighter hull, no more in the way of maneuver thrust- I'd love 2/45 but I don't see it on this basis.)
Hull 5, damage 48/7, crew 56/8, troops 4 (large, probably of similar size, a lot more lightweight)
Armament; a mixture of the usual and the different here, I think, but nothing radical. A small, logical extension- there are light and standard pulsars, but no heavy pulsars. The reason nothing else has them- generally superseded by bolters. So,
Heavy Pulsars, range 12, F, 12AD. Instead of a bolter battery.
All round fire- Light Pulsars, range 8, F, A, P, S each 8AD- more of an assault ship fitting, really.
Disruptor Torpedoes- range 20, F, 6AD, AP Double damage Slow loading

Right, now we can get back to arguing about superdreadnoughts :twisted:

 

[CZuschlag]

Ok, I've been patient on weighing in on this stuff, and I'll do it level-by-level.

We don't just want tactically desirable, but we also waant to maintain what we believe should be the fleet advantages and disadvantages across the Dilgar Imperium. I see the fleet themes as:

-- Wickedly Fast or Wearily Slow and kinda thick
-- A ridiculous amount of AP,DD and Pulse
-- Range issues
-- Anti-fighter issues
-- Mass Drivers
-- Front-towards-enemy

I really don't intend to change on these .... much. So, what are the problems the fleet ought to have?

-- Lack of Jump Engines at Midrange and even a Battle ship
-- Anti-fighter capability
-- No defensive system whatsoever
-- Interceptability
-- Some ships are slow
-- Bad refit and duties list (campaign only)

Anything that we are talking about here has to be considered very carefully under the header of "Do we really want to fix this fleet problem?"

Fleet holes that I agree that exist:

-- Pure combat patrol craft
-- Cheap, efficient way to get fighters on the table
-- Interceptor
-- Mainline combat Battle hull (the Tikrit doesn't cut it)
-- Armageddon

Same goes here .... do we really want to fix these issues?

Given that, let's start, level by level, talking about the entire Dilgar fleet:

PATROL:
Jashakar -- My Existing Assessment: Wierd, but adequeate fleet scout. Likely balanced.
Thorun -- E.A.: Very fast strike fighter that can't strike. Only 1, interceptable, die. A weak design in general. New fighter rules cripple this fighter as it can't even reliably bleed interceptors for bolters like a 2-die pulsar might have done. Possibly weak. Quite unavailable on other ships, so can't really do fighter defense, either.
Breaching Pod -- E.A.: It's a breaching pod. Likely balanced.

Suggested creations:
Suicide Frigate: Interesting idea, but has a lot of potential for brokenness on initiative sinking. Doesn't truly address a need, and can change the feel items at top of page. Recommend exclusion.
Pulsar Frigate: Acknowledged fleet hole that doesn't impinge on either feel or notable existing disadvantages. Recommended. It is hoped that the Reshekar would rise to this challenge, but the ship lacks full arc coverage, something, with the new fighter rules, a ship desparately needs. A Reshekar variant or redesign would be recommended. Inclusion of a Scatter Pulsar may be sufficient. Recommend inclusion.
Interceptor: Debatable. I feel that the Thorun's effective downgrade as compared to other fighters as a result of the fighters-firing sequence in Armageddon is hard to balance. Do we really want to bleed down the interceptors for the bolters like you can with Thunderbolts for railguns? Already short of AF weapons -- something I don't want to fix, as noted above -- the only other anti-fighter options out there are the already over-purchased Omelos and .... some sort of fighter? A +1 dogfight Thorun with the Afterburner for point defense might be logical. No more than +1. Recommend inclusion.

Next up, skirmish.