Green Fire (Dilgar stuff)

[Slightly Norse John]

Looking at the 'Armageddon for the Dilgar' thread, it's developing an increasing amount of heat and very little light. We are getting seriously wound up, snarling at each other, and it isn't getting anywhere or doing any good.
I'm not sure if I'm pouring water or oil on the flames here, but I want to try to do something, get at least a start of actual development done.
I want to take the Dilgar fleet apart, looking at what it has or doesn't have, and what it could have, want, need or afford.
PL breakdown, including RBax' Dilgar ships, one at a time;

Patrol level;
Breaching pods- they're breaching pods, same as everyone else's. Nothing special.
Thorun Dartfighter; their quite literally supreme speed and decent numbers make them very useful- if you get the initiative. As fighters they are mediocre to poor, the Pentacon special rule their only real advantage. Basically a strike fighter.
Jashakar Scout; fast, decent damage and crew for Patrol, scout and massive short range weaponry. A valuable element of any Dilgar force- but in and of itself, it's a puzzler. Definitely one of the quirks of the fleet.
Rishekur Frigate; much more normal for a light attack craft, still pretty hefty for a small ship, and very, very fast. Never CAF with ths ship; the sheer unpredictability of where it's going to strike is it's strongest asset.

technically possible; small and cheap as they are, it's easier to come up with a new Patrol ship than a much larger unit. Problem is, any imbalance gets multiplied by the number of them you buy. In game, it's easy; out of game, it's much harder to balance. That caveat in mind,
The majority of the League warships are small; a ship intended to fight them at parity, small vs. small, could work, Pulsar rather than Bolter armed.
Disruptor Torpedoes could be a real unbalancer- and the only similar ships in a rival navy they came up against were the EA Missile Tethys and Hermes, a bit late from their point of view. A ship with one or two single AD torpedo launchers could easily make too much of a difference. It'd need careful testing and careful tweaking of the rest of the stats, if it were to be done.
I remember hearing about something called the Delegor Suicide Frigate; it struck me as being wrong but interesting. Kill or be killed is one thing, but I don't think it fits the Dilgar mentality, when they're fighting so hard for their racial survival, to deliberately go out to be certainly killed. Drastic action and thin chances, maybe, but not kamikaze.
One thing that might make more sense is a plague ship; small Virus Bomber. There's no way anybody's going to fit a Mass Driver on a ship this size (although it is not only possible but likely on the refit table), so a simple mop- up craft and fear spreader could work.
I really don't see the Dilgar using stealth. (Well, I wouldn't see them, would I...)
Fighter types; the Thorun is beaten by most of it's rivals as a dogfighter, and it's main antiship asset is not so much it's weaponry as it's speed, to find weak points. A dedicated interceptor would multiply the effectiveness of the standard Thorun too, and that could be another balance problem.

Tactically desirable;
A pulsar- armed attack corvette would actually be a step in the direction of normality; if anything, it would make the Dilgar less powerful, by taking up patrol slots you could otherwise shoehorn a 6AD bolter battery into. In the space it would clear for the larger ships would lie it's value. It could be interesting to use.
Plague ships would be a useful scenario element, sort of extermination on the cheap; that might make them worth doing.
On the other hand, a torpedo carrier would be fairly dull. An efficient weapon of war, but not so stellar on the gameplay.

And that's Patrol level at a first approximation. Comments, additions, stat suggestions?

 

[Balance]

I remember hearing about something called the Delegor Suicide Frigate; it struck me as being wrong but interesting. Kill or be killed is one thing, but I don't think it fits the Dilgar mentality, when they're fighting so hard for their racial survival, to deliberately go out to be certainly killed. Drastic action and thin chances, maybe, but not kamikaze.

I've never heard of this, but the class name could also refer to cheaply-made vessels intended for a high-risk one-way planetary assault... Although the 'frigate' moniker might be weird. Maybe a relatively weak ship with light A-F defenses that is intended to make a single planetary landing to get it's cargo to a new world to conquer?

 

[Slightly Norse John]

OK, that went down like a neutronium balloon...
Why do I feel like Magnus Magnusson? Started, so I'll finish. He's an honourary member of The Vikings anyway, so that's all right.

Skirmish level;

Ochlavita Destroyer; pronunciation issues aside, it's still wierd. Very interesting, but freakish. As a prototype, it makes sense. Two sets of twin linked weapons forward, one medium weapon aft, an anti fighter turret weapon, and a boresight laser? Wot?
I have never been able to find a distinct role for this ship. The whole seems less than the sum of the parts.

Omelos Light Cruiser; now this is a ship with a function. The all round light pulsars provide flank cover and erosion, the fore pulsars give it regular offensive firepower, the torps form a key part of the opening breaker salvo. Fast, agile, not particularly robust but in terms of kill or be killed, it works.

Abrithi Troopship; mission specialist. I probably don't give it enough credit, because my planetary assault tactic is 'kill the defending fleet, then you have all the time you need to sort out the planet.' Laser cannon for bombardment purposes, presumably- it doesn't have the hull to survive trying to use it in ship to ship.

Ochlavita- B light carrier; damage and crew fractionally higher, which is a useful basis to plot variants on, but ship and fighters together aren't better than ship without fighters, or fighters without ship.

technically possible; the concept of a heavy combat scout doesn't really work for the Dilgar; they've already got one. Light carriers that start as warship conversions have never worked- the Milani being the shining exception, and I reckon that was a sound combat ship with a fighter afterthought.
On the other hand, we do see boresight lasers start to emerge. it would be the only uninterceptable weapon the Dilgar have, and until (if) 2nd Ed redefines the Abbai's defence technology, they have lots of interceptors. Presumably the Dilgar would have noticed this- they spent rather a lot of time and effort shooting at the Abbai- and while they may not have had time to work on advanced defences for themselves, or refit the fleet with them, they probably did think about how to get through them.
Assuming that Lasers are a late and rare development, giving them to a ship like the Ochlavita- it does actually make sense, but the stat package it comes with doesn't. Hmmm.
I'd like to further scale down an assault ship type, but given the Rohric's fluff, I don't think it would be feasible. It would be interesting but pointless to try statting up a failed miniaturisation attempt; while it could have happened, all that would come out of it would be another Kutai.
I'm not going to perpetrate a bombardment cruiser; while I think there is a place for a torpedo carrier, it belongs at the next level up, where it's stats have room to breathe.
A fleet defender type would be nice, but the Dilgar simply don't have the technology for long range anti fighter weapons. Closest thing to it is an Omelos, really.
Heavier weapons in smaller numbers would be potentially useful.

tactically desirable;
an Ochlavita-C, redesigned around it's lasers and to be an efficient laser platform. Ditch the variety, concentrate on the killer app.

A heavier destroyer, bolter and pulsar armed, but with a smaller numner of heavier weapons, for longer ranged cut and thrust work.
By sheer coincidence, I have one right here...
Tulvarkur Fleet Destroyer
Speed 10, turn 2/45,
Hull 5 damage 24/4, crew 26/5, troops 3
Heavy Bolters- 15, F, 4AD, AP Double Damage
Light Pulsars- range 8, no specials (except MoD as usual), F 6AD, A 4AD
Energy Pulsars- 10, T, 4AD, twin link

Comment?

 

[Davesaint]

Interesting write-ups SNJ. Need to think about this more. I do think they need some kind of real carrier.

Dave

 

[Slightly Norse John]

OK, made the second post before I realised Balance had actually replied to the first, sorry about that...
As far as I recall, the Delegor came from the further reaches of AoG, and it was an actual kamikaze, with an enhanced self destruct mechanism. I did try statting it up once, and ended up giving it a Range-0 Energy Mine with huge numbers of AD. It was a failure in terms of the background, and also a failure in terms of the game, very unlikely to do enough damage to justify itself and, when you get down to it, who of us wouldn't like to fight an enemy that took out it's own ships? (Once or twice, after that it gets boringly easy.)

The high risk one way assault actually makes more sense, but it would be at best a quasi- military design. Come to think of it, it really could work.
Call it an armed merchant, with basic adaptations;

Speed 7, turn 2/45, Atmospheric*
Hull 4, damage 8/2, crew 10/3, troops 4
Scatter Pulsars- range 4, T, 4AD, anti- fighter weak
*= once...it can re-enter, but cannot lift off again.
most of the stat package is a civilian trader, slight improvements in cripple/skeleton threhold, but otherwise it's an instant four troops on planet and anti- strafe platform. An awful lot of Dilgar assault troops are going to die in these things- which is at least a partial easing of the population problem, I suppose.

 

[TenaciousB]

SNJ,
I'm definitely interested in seeing the stats for all the ships you have created - I remember seeing a few a while back, and I must say, I was quite impressed - it's good to find another Dilgar fan (there isn't that many of us lol).

I would certainly like to playtest the ones you have with my regular gaming group.

 

[Slightly Norse John]

Login kicked me out for too long a post on Raid level (those Targraths can kill anything...) so here goes again.

Several are still blue sky, some have been tested to some degree, nothing ever really gets fully tested until the player base gets to hack it about, does it?

Raid level;
existing ships-
Rohric; tolerable, most practical of the assault ships, but not great news for new construction considering how surprised the Dilgar were that it actually worked.

Leskrati; older design, would by RBax' in service date (I prefer IOC, Initial Operational Capability- every time I see ISD, I briefly think Imperial Star Destroyer) it would be the first Dilgar ship to carry lasers- and also Thoruns, four years before their book availability. (Another reason for an earlier version.) A specialist; in small forces the Command rating it brings is less important than the firepower it doesn't.

Targrath-B Strike Carrier; good plan, wrong base hull. There's a good case for a fast light carrier, but not when it's at the expense of a prime combat platform.

Targrath (saving the best till last); the supreme hunter killer of Call to Arms. I have done so much damage with this ship type, so consistently, I don't think it's possible to over-rate it, and therein lies the problem. I have only one bad thing to say about it, and that is that it acts as a deterrent, scaring people off from playing against the Dilgar.

technically possible;
there is a case for a light carrier, but I think it would be better done as a whole cloth design, a type of 'flying dustbin' most likely; if a conversion of an existing unit, it would be better based on an assault ship.
A new model of faster assault ship would have to give up something for it's speed- and my variant has. Dateline is tricky. it would be a very late design, possibly only in time to try to stem the EA counterattack.
This is the level at which I think a disruptor torpedo cruiser could be made to work. They have tactical potential well beyond their damage value, to shoot holes in an enemy's battle plan as much or more than in his ships.
Further out in the possible, there's the concept of taking technology from the enemy or trying to produce their own versions of it. Apart from the minor races the Dilgar over-ran outright, they had a rather interesting relationship with the Narn- but too much of their more interesting technologies mature around 2240+ with the current crop of ships. (Although where the Dilgar's only beam weapon, a full fledged heavy laser cannon, came from...is this it? Same place as the EA? How the Narn must have laughed.)
Much combat with the Abbai, some with the Brakiri (most of the technical transfer seems to have gone the other way, though), the Vree don't seem to have done well enough against the Dilgar to make the Dilgar take them seriously, but the hardest fighting they did was probably against the Drazi. This is an awful lot of 'if', and any developments are likely to be prototypes. It is, however, a tempting thought.

tactically desirable;
I did actually stat up a missile cruiser, although it went through so many different versions, it never did really feel right.
Devrahakt- class Missile Cruiser (2227?)
Speed 8, turn 1/45
Hull 5, damage 26/6, crew 28/7, troops 3
Light Pulsars- range 8, T, no (other) specials, 6AD
Disruptor Torpedoes, range 20, F, AP Double damage Slow-loading
launcher setups varied through three 4AD, two 5AD, two 6AD, four 2AD (shade pointless, that), three 3AD, and there probably would have been an 11AD total version if I could have worked out how to make it symmetrical. It was ambitious, and I was on one level thinking "I'm looking at trading in a Targrath to get this. how do I make it good enough to justify it?"
the triple 3AD and the triple 4AD seemed to work best in practise, but the triple 4AD does tend to the vicious.

The other new Raid level design is the fast assault ship; in practise, it turned into a slow, heavy strike cruiser.
Gavakhlur Assault Cruiser (mid 2231?)
Speed 8, turn 2/45, jump point
Hull 6, damage 25/4, crew 30/5, troops 4, shuttles 2, 1 Thorun flight
Heavy Bolters; 15, F, 6AD, AP Double damage
Light Pulsars; 8, no other specials, F, A, P, S each 5AD
Disruptor Torpedoes- 20, F, 4AD, AP Double damage Slow loading

The League technical piracy thing is going to take some thinking about. I don't want to change the style of the Dilgar fleet, which is exactly what some of the shiniest pieces of kit could do. I don't think Dilgar arrogance alone is enough to stop them trying; they are not unthinking or without cunning, so why didn't they? Require too much diversion of resources? What they already had well up to the job? Actually, that probably is explanation enough.

 

[meglos]

iv got to say slightly norse john as a big dilgar player i love the tulvarkur ochlavita variant it feels better and more dilgar having heavy bolters than having laser cannons even if laser weapons would be of more benefit to them
i also like this idea of one way troop ships 8)

 

[Slightly Norse John]

This post may get split, as it would be the third attempt to post it, the first two were timed out.

Battle level;
I generally do not use slow Dilgar, which makes some of the ships on this level real disappointments.

The IOC on the Garasoch makes no sense. The dreadnoughts were already in service, the strike cruisers were scheduled to enter or actually entering service, so why was their first large fighter platform designed to keep up with assault ships only? 'masses of fighters and hordes of troops'- I don't think it can deploy either fast enough to justify it's value.

Kahtrik; it's damage and crew are so litle different from the Wahant, I don't believe the 'smaller and quicker to manufacture' part. It is well armed and hard to kill, lacking pace. It's one of those ships you hate to see on your opponent's side of the table, but would never have on your own. Basically it's the Dilgar version of the Orestes. But nastier.

Wahant; before this ship gets to attack, the enemy have a chance to defend against it. Or two chances, or three. Light all round and heavy forward weapons, good, but against enemy heavy hitters, or small ships with collectively high firepower, it is a target.

Tikrit; Brute force may always be better, but agility to use it comes in handy, as well. Only in a very large battle would I value this ship's hull and the reach of her guns more highly than the similar weight of fire on the cheaper, nimbler Targrath.

technically possible; the Dilgar do have large, fast hulls, so the Garasoch really has no excuse. The situation around 2220; the fleet consists of heavy- hitting small scouts, fast attack cruisers, and hulking assault ships. They know the star is going to go foom. Speed is about to become vital. Faster very large and medium ships, Dreadnoughts and Strike Cruisers, yes, but the middle upper end of the scale? What I would have done was to retire the Wahant as an assault ship, gut most of the carcasses- remove the drivers and most of the structural padding that goes with them, at least, and use the internal space for fighter bays. A cheap, straightforward heavy carrier. (It might be easier to new- build than to convert, though.)
The other thing is to take the engine plants that are still in good condition, break up the rest of the hull for parts, and new- build a dedicated combatant hull from the drive systems forward, lighter, purely Bolter and Pulsar armed. Instant strike cruiser. Given the lack of agility of the thing, maybe that's exactly what they did with the Tikrit...
Options and alternatives in service; well, now we're looking at two Wahant- derivatives as well as what I had in mind, which is a revised Garasoch-B strike carrier, and basically a mini Mankhat, a strike cruiser design with stronger multi- arc firepower, for close brawls on those occasions when the first salvo doesn't quite do the job.
Stats to follow.

 

[Slightly Norse John]

The Wahant- derivatives and the Garasoch variant will have to wait until I get tinkering time, but this is what I came up with as a heavy strike cruiser.

Tratharti- class (why not? Mongoose aren't doing anything with the name) Heavy Cruiser (Battle)
Speed 10, turn 2/45, jump point
Hull 6, damage 36/6, crew 42/7, troops 5, shuttles 2
Heavy Bolters- range 15, AP Double damage, F, P, S each 6AD
Energy Pulsars- range 10, T, 8AD
Disruptor Torpedoes- 20, F, 4AD, AP Double damage Slow loading

The Tikrit can pick a target and pound on it. So can the Targrath. What neither of them can do is fend off a bold, determined enemy who knows how to counterattack. For it's price the Omelos is actually the best ship in the fleet for that, I reckon, sound all arc fire- but above that, the next thing with decent fire spead is the Mankhat.
We play one particular side or other, (for someone who doesn't think particularly highly of the EA, I play a hell of a lot of EA), but we also play the game as a whole; filling holes in the fleet structure is one thing, and possibly a munchkinish thing, but 'balance' can be interpreted one of two ways. There's the military sense of a balanced force, able to react flexibly and with mutual support, and there's the wargaming sense of producing a fair and playable game.
When you beat someone so thoroughly they decide not to play against you again, at least not with that force, it's not really a victory, is it? We need viable alternatives to the Targrath, ships good enough to be worth taking but not so good as to make people give up in disgust. It's a pretty narrow target, around here anyway, and although I'm not sure about this one, I would be very happy to come out with a ship that was balanced in both sense of the term. The orther variants will go into the final round-up.

 

[Slightly Norse John]

Final official level;
War level;

The Mishakur is the second Dilgar war- level ship to come on line, and it is less survivable than most other races' battle level units. It seldom comes up for the same reason that no-one worries much about the unfortunate fact that the Targrath is actually only two damage better, and one crew worse off, than the Vree Xill. In the forward arc, this thing throws eighteen pulsar dice, six torp and twelve bolter dice, and twenty mass driver dice, if it can ever find anything to stand still for it. In terms of 'get them before they get you', it works.
Unless they sneak round the sides. Rear firepower is weak, port and starboard very weak. This ship cannot operate on it's own, and needs to be used as a spearhead of a large force.

The Mankhat is fractionally slower and significantly more survivable, and in several ways is a substantially better ship, at least in my way of doing things. Three times on my table- well, floor- one of these has successfully engaged it's weight in White Stars; the first time to see if it could, the second time because it had managed it the first, and the third time as a grudge match. Jashakar sinking for it helped a lot, admittedly, but I regard this as the more successful of the dreadnought designs. All round heavy firepower and decent forward emphasis with the drivers and torps.

technically possible;
well, the Dilgar seem to have no problem building large, fast hulls, although their damage tolerance doesn't seem to be quite up to scratch. It is possible for either of them to get the better of a Command Omega, possibly a Bin'Tak, probably a Tashkat or Takata, but a Sharlin or Octurion would quite simply shred them. The Mishakur is at the low end and the Mankhat middle of War PL.
We seem to be approaching a sort of unofficial maximum limit on the number of dice for any particular weapon system- Armageddon contains a couple of 16 and 20 dice batteries, and not weak ones at that, but the usual limit seems to be about 12, and the Dilgar are right up against that.
The only way to get nastier is to get heavier weapons, and while beam armament is a possibility, it's not overwhelmingly likely.
What I originally had in mind was a fairly simple stat package upgrade, but as I started to think about the whys, it became far more interesting. It's unclear exactly what bolters are, but assuming that they're some form of physical projectile, the link to mass drivers- the first thing I thought of was subcalibre shot. Fire a sabot projectile from a mass driver, real numbers totally lacking of course, but concentrate all the power output- magnetic drivers most likely- on a smaller mass, it'll go faster, possibly fast enough to be useful against a moving target. So we have an LPA- like alternate fire mode for mass drivers, maybe. That gradually gets compacted down and miniaturised, shedding normal driver capability, into something that acquires the designation of Superheavy Bolter.
Time pause- more later.

 

[Slightly Norse John]

What else are tomorrow mornings for?

In 'alternative designs', I have a new Dreadnought and a Tikrit-B.

Tikrit-B Command Cruiser (2231, if not early 2232?)
Speed 10, turn 2/45, jump point, Command +2
Hull 6, damage 44/7, crew 48/8, troops 6, shuttles 2
Heavy Bolters- range 15, F, 12AD, AP Double damage
Pulsars- range 10, F, 12AD
Light pulsars- range 8, no (other) specials, A, P, S each 8AD
Disruptor Torpedoes- range 20, AP Double damage Slow loading, two banks each F, 6AD
Heavy forward fire on par with a driverless Mishakur, better Command rating, but still not built for independent deployment; like most command variants it needs something to command, requires a fleet around it to function at anything like it's PL.

Mulvrakoth Dreadnought (2230?)
Speed 7, turn 2/45, Jump Point, Command +1
Hull 6, damage 60/9, crew 74/10, troops 8, shuttles 3, 4 Thorun flights
Heavy Bolters- range 15, F, 12AD, AP Double damage
Energy Pulsars- range 10, twin link, 6AD each F, A, P, S
Bolters- range 10, AP double damage, 6AD each F, A, P, S
Superheavy Bolters- range 30, F, 12AD, AP Double damage

Now this one is interesting, because it was actually tested, and the results were wierd. Giving serious reach firepower to the Dilgar ought to be fantastically unbalancing, right? Let them punish forces that try to keep their distance. It didn't actually achieve much. The preferred kill zone is still right down there at point blank, and the most effective thing the Dilgar can do is to surge forward to close range and unleash mass bolter fire. Also, the sheer cost of the thing dilutes it's impact, and it rapidly became target no. 1. I set it as an upper bound, and expected to have to drop the main gun range to 25 or 20.
The original hull was probably an emergency, bolt on whatever we've got handy field refit of a crippled Mishakur; and the superheavy bolters actually have different stats, as tested, from those on the Tuvathrakur- possibly the result of lining down the MDC's. I'm going to let both versions stand, the superdreadnought's as an improved version of these.

So, subcalibre MDC shot. The initial thought was a speed restriction anything moving 6 or less. Then I thought, large game, how far did a ship move, who's going to remember? Especially if it's a middling restriction like 6 or 7. It needs to be something that can be quickly remembered and looked up. Eventually I settled on the simple version- PL.
Firing subcalibre, maximum range becomes 15, half AD plus 1 (usually 6 per driver), still slow loading, AP Triple damage, the restriction becomes that they can only be fired at a moving target of the same or greater PL than the ship the drivers are mounted on. Doesn't really do much for the Mankhat and Mishakur, makes the Rohric rather interesting now, and line 5 on the refit table suddenly becomes rather shiny. Pop this lot up now (I m getting increasingly paranoid about long posts getting bumped) and proceed to the round- up.

 

[Locutus9956]

SNJ, if you get timeout problems might I suggest you type up long posts in word or notepad etc and then simply paste them in . (good write ups btw )

 

[tneva82]

SNJ, if you get timeout problems might I suggest you type up long posts in word or notepad etc and then simply paste them in .

Or get habit of pressing ctrl-a, ctrl-c (being member of certain online game with frequent timeouts has certainly funny effect in nailing that habit into you...)

 

[Slightly Norse John]

Cheers Locutus, good plan- if I can stop myself ranting, I might do that. (given unlimited time to blather, I will overdo it.) Other thing is, half of this, I only think of in mid type. The subcalibre MDC idea was a very late developer.

Rounding up the ideas that popped up, we have a possibles list consisting of;
at Patrol,
pulsar armed corvette,
plague ship,
earlier version of the Thorun,
interceptor version of the Thorun (one and the same?)

At Skirmish,
Ochlavita-C laser carrier- I think I have a model for this ship; if the Dilgar War is really, as Wulf said, a hamfisted take on WW2, then the Narn played a role somewhere between that of Spain and Italy. Biased neutrality with frequent under the table support until towards the end of the war, when they joined in with the good guys' moral crusade just in time to avoid being tarred with the brush of complicity. I would not be at all surprised if the Ochlavita- C comes out of the design process bearing a strong resemblance to the Ka'Tan.
Minimalist 'dustbin' light carrier, built purely around it's fighters- in the tradition of Mongoose p*ss- taking, I am strongly tempted to name it the Dhusthi.

At Raid...we're full.

Battle level, that pair of Wahant derivatives, the driver-less version with the internal space used for fighters and the version that strips out the engine plant and builds a strike cruiser hull around it. Possibly also a refit Garasoch.

A thought on assault ships; their lack of mobility means they're acceptable in an objective strike, where the target isn't moving, but once you start having to fight battles in open space, they look less good. The most sensible strategic use for them would probably be to park them in orbit around the planets they've just taken, as defence, and also colony control, platforms. You could probably do terra- well, Omelosforming with a well aimed mass driver, blow bits off the icecap to get a high level water vapour shroud to cool the planet, or disturb the ocean, get more CO2 up there for a controlled (?) greenhouse effect to warm it. You're never going to improve the quality of the air doing that, but it's a notion.

War level; again, difficult to think of what else is both feasible and desirable.

Armageddon; why do I have this trerrible urge to repeat the stats from the Star Wars conversions for the Death Star? Because that's basically what the strategic purpose of an Armageddon- level Dilgar ship would be- a terror weapon. What I reckon the Dilgar war plan was, was first expand- fight outwards in all directions; Consolidate, once they (we?) have a sufficient number of worlds a sufficient distance from Omelos, and enough room to evacuate into. Consolidation is going to require a great deal of internal effort, not much in the way of new military investment, an awful lot of industry. It's going to be a weak phase, turning a shaky base into a strong platform for Phase 3; further outward expansion. A psychologically- dominant massive assault platform would have it's uses- as a deterrent in Phase 2- Consolidation, and a spearhead and flagship in phase 3.

 

[Slightly Norse John]

(Short pause for mass rolling of dice and small bits of cardboard)-
What canonically happened, of course, is that the Dilgar made so many enemies in phase 1, they never actually got as far as phases 2 and 3. I reckon it's highly likely that such a thing was on the drawing board, and extremely unlikely that it ever got further than that.

For completeness's sake, the gratification of my ego, and in the event that anybody who wanted it missed it the first time, the biggie.
Tuvathrakur class Superdreadnought (Armageddon)- scheduled in service 2234, unfortunately.
Speed 8, turn 2/45, Jump Point, Command +2
Hull 6, damage 76/8, crew 80/8, troops 8, shuttles 2, 4 Thorun flight
Quad Pulsars; range 10, twin link, 12AD F, 8AD each A, P, S
Heavy Bolters; range 15, AP Double damage, 12AD F, 8AD each A, P, S
Superheavy Bolters- range 30, F, 12AD, Super AP triple damage, on crit, move up a damage category as per MoD, as quad damage doesn't exist (yet?) roll it as two double damage crits.
Disruptor Pulse Launchers- range 20, AP Double damage Precise (MoD, yeep); 6AD each F, A, P, S
The DPLs are an experimental system; they probably wouldn't have worked. Basically a disruptor- pulsar hybrid, hideously expensive but built (hypothetically) under cost-no-object conditions. Feel free to remove them, or assume the others have been cannibalised for bits to keep the F arc's functional.

Patrol;
There seems to have been/be a general move towards greater antiship power in the B5 universe. Goriths are better fighters then Frazi, Razik are better fighters than Sentri, Tishat are better fighters than Nial, Furies are better fighters than T-bolts- most races with two fighters in service, the newer is the better strike craft, the older has higher dogfight. Characteristically, the Drazi do things their own way as usual.

For an older companion piece to the Thorun, then, I suggest this stat line;
Tyran/Thordis Dartfighter (3 flights/wing), 2220-2232
Speed 15, SM, hull 3, dogfight +1, afterburner, atmospheric, dodge 2+, fighter
twin pulse cannon, 2, T, 2AD

my mind has gone blank as far as ship names are concerned. I have the stat line, but not the name.
Pulsar Corvette- 2225
speed 14, turn 2/45, dodge 5+
hull 4, damage 12/2, crew 14/3, troops 2
Pulsars- range 10, F, 6AD
Light Pulsars- range 8, T, 6AD
Scatter Pulsars- range 2, A, 3AD, anti- fighter
I was aiming somewhere between the Jashakar and Rishekur. It has a lot of dice and the Rishekur's dodge, so it should be a useful light combatant.

Plague Bomber- 2223 (based on a Jashakar hull)
Speed 12, turn 2/45,
hull 4, damage 14/2, crew 16/4, troops 2
Light Bolters- range 5, Double Damage, F 3AD, A 2AD
Virus Bombs- range 6, T, 6AD, Orbital Bomb
Maybe I should have messed more with the primary weapon fit, given it pulsars instead- redrafts are always possible, and if you reckon something is unlikely, unbelievable, or simply well over the top (far more likely with the Dilgar, really) let me know.

 

[Davesaint]

On the Armageddon level ship my response would be not only no, but Heck NO! The Super-Heavy Bolters are BUSTED! 12AD Triple Damage, SAP and get 2 for 1 Criticals? I don't think so! Everything gets MOD? NO! The torps should not get MOD.

12AD in the forward arc on a Patrol level hull? NO!

Light fighter/AF figher - Ok.

Dave

 

[Slightly Norse John]

Nice to see the intimidation factor is working, then :lol:

Seriously, the Tuvathrakur is basically a revised-and-extended Mankhat; it has damage and crew equal to a decent average for the previous PL in most other people's fleets, and no survivability aids whatsoever. The only way it can justify it's cost is to follow the standard Dilgar pattern of being heavily enough armed- overarmed?- to smash the living daylights out of a substantially tougher enemy, faster than that enemy, no mean entrant in the firepower stakes itself, can burn through it's relatively modest ability to absorb punishment.
At Armageddon level, that's some pretty spectacular opposition. If it wasn't heavily enough armed to get that sort of reaction, it wouldn't be worth it's level. Without piling battery on battery, which the larger Dilgar designs do to some extent anyway, the only way is to go for higher quality dice.
The bolters I'm more sanguine about than the disruptor- pulse hybrids. The hybrids are/were an experimental system, and I'm perfectly happy to assume they were an utter failure in practise, never making it off the test bench- but what else? Revert to conventional disruptor torpedoes, in which case it would probably be two 8AD banks forward? Probably fit a driver bank as well, then.
The superheavies- I'm not overwhelmingly happy about trying to sneak in a new special rule anyway, but if the thing is at triple already, where does it go? There is no quadruple damage. Treating the hit as two doubles seemed better than going to the earth- shattering kaboom of letting there be such a thing; a 6-anything or an anything-6 at quad damage would be not far short of instant kill.
Believe it or not, I have actually tried this one out, and I was satisfied with it. Then again, I do think most of the Armageddon level units are underpowered and excessively crit vulnerable, so I went quite far in building one that wasn't and at least could give as good as it got. Maybe a shade too far, but that begs the question; what else?

The Nendrevath Pulsar Corvette (hey, it acquired a name)- well, comparisons; the Tethys standard has eight dice forward, two port and starboard, and interceptors. The Missile version may edge up into the same general usefulness band as the Jashakar. The Corvan has more total fire output, besides interceptors and stealth. That 'total fire output' makes it less effective in a one on one, more effective in a fleet battle where it's likely to find multiple targets.
The Sh'Kos has eight dice and two dice of precise beam. the Tiraca (probably this ship's primary opponent) has 5-4-4 and a dice of AP precise beam, and...OK, OK, it's clearly more heavily armed than the Vree. There are a lot of light hunters out there, and they're exactly what it's supposed to go up against.
(The Omelos, of course, next level up, has fourteen pulsar and four torpedo dice forward and six dice each other arc.)
The obvious change is to move the turret guns Aft, and vice versa- AF in the turret, light pulsars astern.

 

[Davesaint]

Nice to see the intimidation factor is working, then :lol:

Seriously, the Tuvathrakur is basically a revised-and-extended Mankhat; it has damage and crew equal to a decent average for the previous PL in most other people's fleets, and no survivability aids whatsoever. The only way it can justify it's cost is to follow the standard Dilgar pattern of being heavily enough armed- overarmed?- to smash the living daylights out of a substantially tougher enemy, faster than that enemy, no mean entrant in the firepower stakes itself, can burn through it's relatively modest ability to absorb punishment.
At Armageddon level, that's some pretty spectacular opposition. If it wasn't heavily enough armed to get that sort of reaction, it wouldn't be worth it's level. Without piling battery on battery, which the larger Dilgar designs do to some extent anyway, the only way is to go for higher quality dice.
The bolters I'm more sanguine about than the disruptor- pulse hybrids. The hybrids are/were an experimental system, and I'm perfectly happy to assume they were an utter failure in practise, never making it off the test bench- but what else? Revert to conventional disruptor torpedoes, in which case it would probably be two 8AD banks forward? Probably fit a driver bank as well, then.
The superheavies- I'm not overwhelmingly happy about trying to sneak in a new special rule anyway, but if the thing is at triple already, where does it go? There is no quadruple damage. Treating the hit as two doubles seemed better than going to the earth- shattering kaboom of letting there be such a thing; a 6-anything or an anything-6 at quad damage would be not far short of instant kill.
Believe it or not, I have actually tried this one out, and I was satisfied with it. Then again, I do think most of the Armageddon level units are underpowered and excessively crit vulnerable, so I went quite far in building one that wasn't and at least could give as good as it got. Maybe a shade too far, but that begs the question; what else?

The Nendrevath Pulsar Corvette (hey, it acquired a name)- well, comparisons; the Tethys standard has eight dice forward, two port and starboard, and interceptors. The Missile version may edge up into the same general usefulness band as the Jashakar. The Corvan has more total fire output, besides interceptors and stealth. That 'total fire output' makes it less effective in a one on one, more effective in a fleet battle where it's likely to find multiple targets.
The Sh'Kos has eight dice and two dice of precise beam. the Tiraca (probably this ship's primary opponent) has 5-4-4 and a dice of AP precise beam, and...OK, OK, it's clearly more heavily armed than the Vree. There are a lot of light hunters out there, and they're exactly what it's supposed to go up against.
(The Omelos, of course, next level up, has fourteen pulsar and four torpedo dice forward and six dice each other arc.)
The obvious change is to move the turret guns Aft, and vice versa- AF in the turret, light pulsars astern.

Ok lets start with the cutter:

Tethys - Hull 4 Dam. 8/2 Crew 10/2 Int. 1
F - Med. Pulse F 6AD Range 10
F - LPC - Range 8 - 2AD
P/S LPC - Range 8 2AD each

Max dice to any Arc - 8. No specials

Sho'Kos - Hull 4 Dam. 12/3 Crew -0 12/3 Dodge 5
Forward -
Burst beam Range 4 3AD Beam. Precise
MPC Range 6 2 AD
Turret-
LPC - Range 4 4AD Weak


Tiraca - Hull 4 Dam - 19/4 Crew - 19/4
Forward -
Combat Laser - Range 12 - 1AD AP,B,Preceise
Quad Array - Range 8 - 5 AD, TL

Port/Starboard - Range 8 4AD TL

So The Sho'kos can fire 9 AD at range 4, The Tiraca can fire 6 AD at range 8, and the Tethys can fir 8 AD at Range 8

Your new ship can fire 12 AD at range 8, which while they don't have any specials, do double damage on Crits.


Regarding the Armageddon level Ship -

None of the new ships have a 12 AD Range 30 weapon, espeically a Triple Damage one that as written would do 2 double damage crits for every crit you roll. Since in many cases the game is decided on whether or not you get crits, and how many you get, this is busted.

There is a reason the Dilgar don't get MOD on their torps. They would be too overgunned. Frankly they don't need it. They don't need precise on the torps either. Give it an 8-10 AD torp system that is not slow loading and it will be fine. Keep the pulsars and the heavy bolters. Give it 6AD of your Super-Heavy Bolters that are TD and Range 20. Give it Mass Drivers, something like 10AD F and Aft at range 15 and it would be a nasty ship.


Dave

 

[Slightly Norse John]

Small spot of tactical testing later-
The Tuvathrakur is definitely, possibly definitively, overgunned. On the other hand, dumb luck had a lot to do with it. One-on-one against a Victory, ISA get init, Dilgar make minimum move forward, just enough to come within each other's gun range. Victory can press forward into it's own turret gun range with Afterburners, but doesn't want to- all those heavy bolters- and can't line up a boresight; settles for a cautious trundle forward. Four hits including a reactor -5 crit from the neutrons, return Superheavy Bolter fire lands eleven hits, without the benefit of CAF. Interceptor directors collapse from shock, nine get through, three crit out.
Using the two double split, that turns into a 2-5, 4-1 and 4-3, 4-5 (turret) and 4-6, and 6-5. splat. Mission kill.
I don't think you have to be a Dilgar player to understand the phrase 'beautifully vicious', but it helps.
I'm sticking with the range, arc and weight of fire of the superheavies. They're what this ship is for, they're what happens when you try to fire an ordinary railgun round out of a mass driver, they also mean I don't have to fit bolters and heavy bolters in the same arc. Crit splitting is excessive, though. Remove MoD; assume, basically, they hit the end wall, and simply can't impact any harder. I was pleasantly surprised to hit that hard; normally I'd be using them to remove the smaller ships in the enemy flight outright, get hard kills on Raid level and below, fire them last in a close ranged combined salvo at bigger targets.

That leaves the ship with an inner defensive ring of quad pulsars, an offensive ring of heavy bolters, a very nasty main gun, and an empty set of weapon galleries for an experimental system that never worked in practise. Two 6AD banks of disruptor torpedoes forward, maybe.

F and T arcs on the Nendrevath are simply an elegant design, and one that would not be alone in the Dilgar fleet list; Targrath, Tikrit both have similar arrangements, with them a heavy weapon forward and a ligher weapon in the turret. It means that in a large fight you can engage multiple opponents, in a more open combat double up and get heavy firepower on one target. It also means you don't have to mount nearly as many guns to get all round coverage, which is kind of important in a situation when every ounce of industrial output counts. Fewer dice, maybe- a drop to two sets of 4 might be justifiable- but the arrangement stays.

Ochlavita- C laser destroyer;
What does it lose for a better main gun? Some raw firepower- enough to make it a dubious choice except specifically when lasers are needed. The Ka'Tan comparison- in mind but not dominant. I dn't think I can justify moving to all round weapons.
Speed 10, turn 2/45,
hull 5, damage 22/4, crew 24/4, troops 3
Laser Cannon- range 20, Boresight, 3AD, Super AP Beam Double damage
Pulsars- range 10, F, 8AD
Scatter Pulsars- range 4, T, 6AD anti- fighter

'Dhusthi' (Alarkhet) Escort Carrier
Speed 7, turn 1/45, Jump Point
Damage 27/4, crew 30/5, troops 4, Carrier 2, 4 Thorun or Tyran flights
Bolters- range 10, F, 2AD, AP Double damage
Pulsars- range 10, F, 4AD,
Light Pulsars- range 8, A, P, S each 3AD
If anybody's light carrier should be capable of looking after itself in a fight, it should be theirs.