Grappling is starting to piss me off

[wyerdo]

Dr. Skull,

Alas, it is a tribute to your insight and experience that you would favor pure simplicity over complex rules-lawering. However, as you pointed out grappling was ported from the SRD and as such it retains all the quirky opposed dice rolls and needless procedures therein.

As your grapple-friendly player, I would be happy to be your personal grapple rules monkey. This service would save you the needless cerebral expense of dealing with these rules in-game. When a grapple develops, I'll tell those involved to roll dice and resolve the results.

Alternately, we could cook something new up ourselves.

We could speed things up by just assuming that grappling defenders do not roll an opposed grapple check, but instead are assumed to have rolled a 10 -- similar to the way we do normal attacks vs. DR now. This would give all characters a grapple defense value. My own would be +3(BAB) +4(STR) +4 (Improved Grapple) +10 = 21. Someone engaged in a grapple with me would have to beat this score with their grapple check to damage/pin/move/escape from me in a grapple.

 

[Elfman]

We could speed things up by just assuming that grappling defenders do not roll an opposed grapple check, but instead are assumed to have rolled a 10 -- similar to the way we do normal attacks vs. DR now. This would give all characters a grapple defense value. My own would be +3(BAB) +4(STR) +4 (Improved Grapple) +10 = 21. Someone engaged in a grapple with me would have to beat this score with their grapple check to damage/pin/move/escape from me in a grapple.

This is a really great idea. I will definitely use this rule.

Grappling is a far more similar situation to Parry and Dodge (where there is no opposed roll) than to opposed skill checks (the main place in d20 3.x that has opposed rolls).

 

[Yokiboy]

Know that your illustrious and terrifying game-master is in full sympathy with your position. Since it will also help me inflict pain on your over-armored fellows, with my feeble hordlings.

And it will help! :twisted:

Wyerdo, wish the rest of your party good luck. :lol:

TTFN,

Yokiboy

 

[Yokiboy]

We could speed things up by just assuming that grappling defenders do not roll an opposed grapple check, but instead are assumed to have rolled a 10 -- similar to the way we do normal attacks vs. DR now. This would give all characters a grapple defense value. My own would be +3(BAB) +4(STR) +4 (Improved Grapple) +10 = 21. Someone engaged in a grapple with me would have to beat this score with their grapple check to damage/pin/move/escape from me in a grapple.

Wyerdo, you're a genious! Why bother with all those opposed rolls for grappling, when we don't do it for Parries and Dodges. I'll do the same IMC from now on. Thanks!

We should get Mongoose Bob to read this thread and your suggestion Wyerdo.

DrSkull, you should hold on to that player, let his characters twist a couple of shoulders out of socket on my tab. :wink:

TTFN,

Yokiboy

 

[Mongoose Bob]

I quite like the idea, anything to speed up combat. Will put this forward, has got a positive response so far.

Sorry to ask this but need other opinions as well,

Who does not like it & why?

 

[Mongoose Bob]

I appreciate your response Yokiboy. I play a character with feats that lean toward making a lot of grapple attacks. I suppose I'm using this forum to make a case for grappling attacks not being affected by armor (or at the very least not *always* affected). Then my games-master (Dr. Skull) might read this forum and make a ruling in my favor, rather than in favor of all the tin-can heavy armor types in our campaign. Let's see if it works or not...

Damage from the grapple should bypass armour as otherwise you will never harm the person you are grappleing, will change the text.

This is different from attacking your opponent in the same section.

 

[sanseveria]

I also think this is a good idea, anything to speed up and simplify combat is welcomed in my game. I'm curious to know how the players will react to this. I'll bring it up at the game session this weekend and see what they think.

SS

 

[Yokiboy]

Damage from the grapple should bypass armour as otherwise you will never harm the person you are grappleing, will change the text.

You're the man!

What do you personally think of Wyerdo's idea with a Grappling DV instead of using Opposed Grapple Checks? I think the idea makes a ton of sense, especially as all other DVs have static values. How about taking another step away from the d20 SRD? :wink:

TTFN,

Yokiboy

 

[DrSkull]

I like both these changes a lot.

 

[Anonymous]

I like both these changes a lot.

Well, cool. I got my wish. I can't wait to play "Lil' Bunny Foo Foo" on all those bad, dirty monkeys this weekend! (picking them up and bopping them on the head)

 

[DrSkull]

No monkeys this Sunday! As Crom is my witness, I will not have a single monkey.

 

[Yokiboy]

No monkeys this Sunday! As Crom is my witness, I will not have a single monkey.

Right, like we believe you... Wyerdo is playing a gorilla right? :wink:

TTFN,

Yokiboy

 

[sanseveria]

C'mon Dr. Skull, keep the dream alive...

SS

 

[DrSkull]

So maybe something like this to simplify grappling:

Step 1) Defender gets Attack of Opportunity (unless Improved Grapple)
Hit, equals no grapple attempt.

Step 2) Attacker makes a "Grapple to Hit" roll against the Defender's Grapple Defense (10+BAB+Str+Improved Grapple Bonus+Grapple Size Modifier).

Step 3) Do grappling damage, which ignores armor DR

Step 4) Maintain Grapple: move into space of target.

Subsequent Rounds) You may attempt any of the options listed under "if you are Grappling" on page 180-181, but substitute a To Hit roll against Grapple Defense in place of opposed grapple check

What this does is eliminate the opposed checks in favor of a To Hit roll, so grappling works like all the other combat attacks. It also rolls the Melee Touch attack and the Opposed Grapple Check into one roll. Finally, it makes it clear that armor is no defense against grappling.

 

[wyerdo]

I'll buy that for a dollar!

 

[argo]

I used to think that the grapple rules were a bit wonky. Then I started playing a monk in an OA campagin; aint nothing that will teach you all the ins and outs of grappling faster than getting into a wrestiling match twice a session :wink: Like most everything else in d20 I think that the key is to actually sit down and do it a couple of times to demistify the situation. That said there are some great ideas in this thread.

So maybe something like this to simplify grappling:

Step 1) Defender gets Attack of Opportunity (unless Improved Grapple)
Hit, equals no grapple attempt.

Step 2) Attacker makes a "Grapple to Hit" roll against the Defender's Grapple Defense (10+BAB+Str+Improved Grapple Bonus+Grapple Size Modifier).

This is an ok idea and won't unbalance the game. However you will get a "thematic" change. By abandoning the opposed rolls you will give up on the potential for drawn-out, back and forth wrestling matches where first one guy has the upper hand then the other, a scene which is very Conanesque. In return grapples will be a bit more streamlined and, more improtantly, less psycholigically imposing to the players making them more likely to try out grapples. I dont' think that this will actually speed up combat all that much (a little less die rolling) since I already have the normal grapple mod in every NPC statblock and insist each player has it on his sheet as well. You will have to do half as much die rolling and half as much addition per grapple, a little faster but not that much. Still, if this makes grapples more appealing to you then I say go ahead and do it. I may even give it a try myself

Step 3) Do grappling damage, which ignores armor DR

I like it. I love it. I want more of it! This rule is here to stay thank you very much 8)

Step 4) Maintain Grapple: move into space of target.

Subsequent Rounds) You may attempt any of the options listed under "if you are Grappling" on page 180-181, but substitute a To Hit roll against Grapple Defense in place of opposed grapple check

What this does is eliminate the opposed checks in favor of a To Hit roll, so grappling works like all the other combat attacks. It also rolls the Melee Touch attack and the Opposed Grapple Check into one roll. Finally, it makes it clear that armor is no defense against grappling.

I do however think that you should keep the meele touch attack to start the grapple. Why? Because a properly bult grapple twink can, in most cases, dominate any single target who is not two sizes larger or five levels higher or himself a grapple twink. This fact is 90% balanced by the facts that a) now the grapple twink can do nothing but stand around and continue to grapple his target, thus removing himself from the fight as well and b) if the target has friends nearby the grapple twink is about to be in a world of hurt. However the other 10% of balance is the fact that you still need a touch attack to hit. This is particularly important for roguish types who have no hope of winning a grapple check but do have a prety good touch AC. Even better in Conan where touch AC = Dodge DV! It is a small point but I think it is an important one.

Also: if I were you I'd take wyerdo up on his offer to be your grapple rules monkey and let him walk everybody through any grapple encounters. Remember: Rules Lawyering is born neither of the Dark side nor the Light but simply is. Recruting a Rules Lawyer to the side of good is a double victory because it makes everyone's life easier to have their own personal talking rulebook and you prevent them from slipping and becoming a Munchkin Rules Lawyer, which is an abomination in the sight of all. Trust me, I know these things :wink:

 

[Yokiboy]

This is an ok idea and won't unbalance the game. However you will get a "thematic" change. By abandoning the opposed rolls you will give up on the potential for drawn-out, back and forth wrestling matches where first one guy has the upper hand then the other, a scene which is very Conanesque. In return grapples will be a bit more streamlined and, more improtantly, less psycholigically imposing to the players making them more likely to try out grapples. I dont' think that this will actually speed up combat all that much (a little less die rolling)

Actually, from my experience it will speed up the game quite a bit, at least for my group. We first tried rolling for AC when playing D&D 3.0, and found that it dragged the game down to a halt! I like the wrestling feel of back and forth action (being a huge wrestling/MMA fan), but I'd go for quicker, easier rules in a heartbeat. YMMV.

I do however think that you should keep the meele touch attack to start the grapple.

I completely agree.

TTFN,

Yokiboy