Grappling is starting to piss me off

[DrSkull]

I mean, couldn't they have come up with something easier than the grappling rules as they are?

I've got to look the cursed things up every single time someone or something tries to grapple.

I mean, you've got to hit, then do an opposed grapple check, and then do another opposed grapple check or something else if you want to grapple to mean anything.

Also, what good does grappling do against a dude with good armor? Say a fellow has DR8. A bunch of guys with knives grapple him and then pin him. Big deal, their knives still can't punch through the armor, and neither can their unarmed attacks do enough damage to get through the armor.

I guess the only benefit to pinning the guy is it makes it much easier to finesse past the armor. So that must be it. Alright it does some good. But couldn't it be easier?

 

[LoneStranger]

Ok, grapple the guy and start peeling him out of his armor, that's how you can make grapple a lot more worthwhile.

 

[wyerdo]

Since I'm interested in grappling all the giant monkeys I come across I'm afraid I am terribly interested in this subject of grappling heavily armored opponents.

I was under the impression that grapple damage would bypass armor, but I can't find any rules to support my preconceptions.

Can you make a finesse grapple? What sorts of rules are there for stripping armor from a grappled opponent? Are there any rules for asphyxiating a grappled opponent? Is a pinned character helpless? If so, couldn't another character coup de grace a pinned opponent?

 

[Yokiboy]

Here's a checklist covering all the Grapple rules. You can download this in MS Word format from the ConanD20 Yahoo! group, it is called Combat-Yoki.doc, and is a summary of the combat rules.

Grapple
Grab: Provokes AOO, if it fails to damage you, then perform a Grapple Touch Attack
Hold: Free Action following a successful Grab; Opposed Grapple Check
* If attacker wins the Hold, now grappling plus deal Unarmed Strike damage [1d4]
* 4 medium-sized combatants can grapple a single opponent in a given round
Maintain: To maintain the grapple, you must move into the defender’s square
Grappling Consequences:
* Grapplers do not threaten any squares while grappling
* Grapplers are Flat-Footed versus opponents not involved in the grappling
* Randomly determine target struck if not grappling and using Ranged Attack versus grappling foe
* Grapplers cannot move normally while grappling
Joining Grapple: No AOO; win Opposed Grapple Check vs one foe to become part of grapple
Pinned: Helpless vs foes not grappling you [DV1]

Grappling Options
Options: Page 180-181 lists all available options; counts as attacks unless otherwise noted
Attack: –4 To Hit with Unarmed Strike, Natural or Light Weapon against grappling foe
* No Two-Weapon Combat allowed
Break Pin: Win Opposed Grapple Check to break another’s pin
Damage Foe: Win Opposed Grapple Check to deal Unarmed Strike damage [1d4]
Draw Weapon: Win Opposed Grapple Check to draw a Light Weapon [Move Action]
Escape Grapple: Win Opposed Grapple Check to disengage and move to an adjacent space
* May use Escape Artist Check instead of Grapple, but only as a Standard Action
* Check must beat all opponents’ individual checks [you roll just one Check]
* Only Grappling Option allowed while Pinned
Move: Win Opposed Grapple Check to move at half speed bringing all others with you
* +4 to move a Pinned opponent, but only if no one else is involved in the grapple
* Standard Action required
Pin Foe: Win Opposed Grapple Check to hold foe immobile for 1 round
Use Foe’s Wpn: Win Opposed Grapple Check to use foe’s held Light Weapon against him
* Follow up with Free Action –4 To Hit Melee Attack, foe retains grip of weapon

Pinning Opponent
Disarm: Perform a regular Disarm Check to remove a well secured object worn by foe
* Opponent receives a +4 bonus on his Opposed Disarm Check
Options: Available Grappling Options are Damage Foe, Use Foe’s Weapon, and Move
* At your option, you can prevent a pinned opponent from speaking
Release Pin: Voluntarily release a pinned opponent as a Free Action, no longer grappling

Hope that helps?

As you can see the real benefit of pinning someone, is having your friend Finesse attack him with a poniard in the eye! :twisted:

TTFN,

Yokiboy

 

[Lane Shutt]

* Grapplers are Flat-Footed versus opponents not involved in the grappling

It does not say flat footed, only loss of Dex bonus to DV against those not in grapple. However since you loose dodge bonuses when Dex mod is lost it is efectively the same thing. You are at DV 10.

Pinned: Helpless vs foes not grappling you [DV1]

Major error there.

"When an opponent has pinned you, you are held immobile (but not helpless) for 1 round. While you are pinned, you take a -4 penalty to your DV against opponents other than the one pinning you.

This gives you a final DV 6.
Since the max DR for armor is 12 that means a finesse attack totaling 18 will bypass even the heaviest armor.

 

[S'mon]

I've always ruled that grapple damage bypasses DR, just as it bypasses AC. I call it the 'Grendel Rule' - Beowulf couldn't penetrate Grendel's DR but he could still rip the trollkin's arm off.

 

[Yokiboy]

* Grapplers are Flat-Footed versus opponents not involved in the grappling

It does not say flat footed, only loss of Dex bonus to DV against those not in grapple. However since you loose dodge bonuses when Dex mod is lost it is efectively the same thing. You are at DV 10.

Mongoose Bob stated that "You are classified as Flatfooted against opponents other than the one grappling you." This was later changed, see the quote below. You're correct though, this is something I forgot to update in my cheat sheet, thanks for the catch.

"When an opponent has pinned you, you are held immobile (but not helpless) for 1 round. While you are pinned, you take a -4 penalty to your DV against opponents other than the one pinning you.
This gives you a final DV 6.

Helpless is defined as: Flat-Footed with an additional DV –4 circumstance penalty; Dex 0 (mod –5) [the sum of all this is DV1]

Granted, that being Pinned == Helpless is my interpretation, but what if not helpless are you while pinned? I based my decision on an early ruling by Mongoose Bob, but 4/6/2004 he added the following regarding when Sneak Attacks can be performed:

The confusion has occurred because in the combat section we just deny Dex bonuses and not the entire dodge or parry bonus. We have been going over this and when we are happy we will give out all of the data but for example being pinned by an opponent.

I previously classified this as flatfooted. I used the wrong term and should have said "while pinned you lose you dodge and parry bonuses against opponents other than the one you are being pinned by".

This would allow the sneak attack against people being held down, which seems right.

Maybe this should be interpreted to mean that you lose BDB and BPB, but not Dex and Str respectively, which is not in line with any of the current rulings by Mongoose Bob. Although, the fact that you retain your natural reflexes and strength is probably more logical than retaining learned reactions to outside stimuli... but I'm digressing.

A few of us here on the boards believe a new Combat Condition is required, and came up with the following:

Impaired: Retain only BPB or BDB to DV; retain Shield Bonus; vulnerable to Sneak Attacks
* Blinded, Cowering, Feinted, Grappling, Stunned (when book says lose Dex bonus)

While we defined Helpless as follows:

Helpless: Flat-Footed with an additional DV –4 circumstance penalty; Dex 0 (mod –5) [DV1]
* Bound, Paralyzed, Pinned, Sleeping, Unconscious

This has not been confirmed as correct by anyone from the Mongoose crew, but is what I'm using for now.

TTFN,

Yokiboy

 

[wyerdo]

This gives you a final DV 6.
Since the max DR for armor is 12 that means a finesse attack totaling 18 will bypass even the heaviest armor.

Can't a grappled target parry? If so, wouldn't that DV just be at parry -4?

Now that I think about it, isn't there a combat maneuver where you can parry a blow using the body of your grappled opponent? That would be an example in the rules of a parry in a grapple. Or is it the fact that the target is pinned the reason why they can't parry?

 

[Yuan-Ti]

Based on what MBob wrote, I believe he meant that your DV while pinned against opponents not grappling you is 10.

Of course, for heroic purposes, I like to think that a character can struggle enough, even if pinned, to avoid being killed outright unless his opponent rolls very high.

 

[Yokiboy]

Based on what MBob wrote, I believe he meant that your DV while pinned against opponents not grappling you is 10.

Of course, for heroic purposes, I like to think that a character can struggle enough, even if pinned, to avoid being killed outright unless his opponent rolls very high.

Yup, but MBob's clarification would then mean that being Pinned == Flat-Footed, due to his own definition of the Flat-Footed condition.

As relates to your second comment, it is actually not the person that's doing the pinning that can kill him, he's unable to perform any Attack Actions, but can by winning an Opposed Grapple Check can deal Unarmed Strike damage [1d4] to the pinned opponent.

I think that attacking an opponent being pinned by a friend, should have the victim treated as Helpless and allow for a Coup de Grace. :twisted:

TTFN,

Yokiboy

 

[Yuan-Ti]

I think that attacking an opponent being pinned by a friend, should have the victim treated as Helpless and allow for a Coup de Grace. :twisted:

That is specifically what I was referring to -- in heroic fantasy Conan, or any of the other pulp heroes, face situations in which they are being grappled and someone approaches to finish them off. What happens? They twist away from the blow (and then turn it to their advantage). If Conan had a DV1 and coup de grace was allowed, Conan would get skewered.

Helpless is helpless,
Grappled is disadvantaged,
Pinned ought to be somewhere in between.

 

[Yokiboy]

Helpless is helpless,
Grappled is disadvantaged,
Pinned ought to be somewhere in between.

Well if you decipher the rules as Lane Shutt, and I'm sure others, it is. To me though, skewering pinned folks is realistic and will stay until I find that it wrecks the game. Pinning someone isn't all that easy, and you cannot perform a Coup de Grace without provoking AoO from other standing opponents. To me being pinned is the end of the fight pretty much. The scene you describe of Conan twisting loose would mean he was just grappled, but not yet pinned, or succeeded at his Escape Artist check.

TTFN,

Yokiboy

 

[Yuan-Ti]

Fair enough. You're right that pinning is not easy to accomplish so it should not come up very often.

 

[Yokiboy]

Fair enough. You're right that pinning is not easy to accomplish so it should not come up very often.

I have actually tried my darndest to pin some characters in my Kingdoms of Kalamar campaign, using all sorts of foul, tentacled beasts, but without success. :evil:

TTFN,

Yokiboy

 

[wyerdo]

I'm still curious as to how effective a lone grappler would be against a armored opponent. If it is impossible to beat the DR of the armor, is there a way to bypass armor in a grapple? The rules are unclear on a "finesse grapple".

If grapple is an unarmed attack like any other, couldn't I just beat the DR of the armor on the "grab check" to reflect that my character was able to grab the character through the armor before the grapple started (such as say -- by the neck).

 

[DrSkull]

Helpless is helpless,
Grappled is disadvantaged,
Pinned ought to be somewhere in between.

you cannot perform a Coup de Grace without provoking AoO from other standing opponents.
TTFN,

Yokiboy

Unless you are "saling a road of blood and slaughter" me hearties

 

[Yuan-Ti]

Aye! Arrrrr!

 

[Yokiboy]

I'm still curious as to how effective a lone grappler would be against a armored opponent. If it is impossible to beat the DR of the armor, is there a way to bypass armor in a grapple? The rules are unclear on a "finesse grapple".

Hey wyerdo, I'd rule that once you've pinned an opponent, if you succeed with the Damage Opponent Grappling Option, the damage would be applied straight to your opponent, with no regards for DR. I mean twisting an arm out of its socket, or choking the opponent will still hurt, no matter how much armor he's wearing.

TTFN,

Yokiboy

 

[wyerdo]

I appreciate your response Yokiboy. I play a character with feats that lean toward making a lot of grapple attacks. I suppose I'm using this forum to make a case for grappling attacks not being affected by armor (or at the very least not *always* affected). Then my games-master (Dr. Skull) might read this forum and make a ruling in my favor, rather than in favor of all the tin-can heavy armor types in our campaign. Let's see if it works or not...

 

[DrSkull]

Wyerdo,

Know that your illustrious and terrifying game-master is in full sympathy with your position. Since it will also help me inflict pain on your over-armored fellows, with my feeble hordlings.

I must say I like the idea of grapple damage ignoring armor, it makes so much sense all around, but is not present in the rules. But, part of that is that the rules are ported from the SRD, which doesn't have the Armor gives DR set up in mind.

So, I am strongly inclined to make a grapple damage ignores armor ruling.

But, it all comes back to my initial point, couldn't the grapple rules have been easier in the first place? I suppose not.