Gorn Fleet - Comments Welcomed

Not to mention the shortish range of the top end Plasmas.

That depends on how you look at it. The plasma R can cover a max of 32 hexes in FedCom, which is the same as a ship can move at flat out in 1 turn. so that translates about right on that metric.

Plasma is auto hit and on a 2 turn cycle, both are big advantages over the source game. They are, however, reduced by phasers far more effectively which (maybe) compensates.

If you take how far a ship can move and base ranges off that, then it is the huge (and still effective) range of other weapons that doesn't translate so well.

e.g. Phaser 1s are effective at range 18". Phasers in the source game are just not that effective at those sort of ranges, but they do become very effective up close. Removing the accuracy trait from phasers would make them more in line at long range, and change 'Kill Zone' to provide an accuracy bonus instead so that they still have the close range killing power. The kill zones could do with being reduced a bit (to 6") as well, they shouldn't have a kill zone greater than overload range of heavies, and at 8" it is a huge distance relative to ship speed.


In fact phasers are probably just far to effective all round in this game, which is probably partially responsible for some balance issues. They have too long an effective range, to big a kill zone/do too much damage, (1 or the other) and are too good against plasma.

A phaser1 doing 2 damage would be about right at point blank (base contact) range, but at 8" it is probably double what they should be doing.

Having a plamsa degraded by all phasers 1AD per hit is huge, and whilst plasma does get some advantages from auto hit, I'm not sure the phaser effectiveness is right. Most cruisers in this game can take a plasma R on the nose and suffer no permanent damage even to shields (boost shields and phaser it down). That is just plain wrong, plasma R ought to be the most scary single weapon in the game, that should make you run or suffer at least a down shield even after phasering it. Obvioulsy the option to run doesn't exist in this game, but being able to ignore a plasma R is far to much compensation for the loss of the 'run' option.

Gorn Cruiser vs a Fed NCA (near enough same point). 12AD of plasma, vs upto 10 phasers and a boost shields. The Fed shoots down on average 7/8 and boost shields negates another 2, leaving an average 7-11 damage to shields. That is for something that would have left the Fed crippled in the source games, or heading in the opposite direction at high speed. Drop back a range category (to 8-12") and the Gorn averages no damage at all.

Another way of looking at it, 4 overloaded photons vs 2S + 2F should do the same damage at close range (after accounting for the increased reload speed of plasma). That would imply that plasma is about 1 AD short (each type) on what it should be doing compared to the other 2 turn armer currently in the game. I.E in this game 2 overloaded photons on average hit for 16AD.

In the above example it should be noted that such an increase in plasma damage still doesn't take down the enemy shield.


The problem with ACTA is that by removing any run away option, and making fleet based IDF so hard it has painted itself into a corner regarding balance of plasma, Plasma can more or less table an opponent in 1 fell swoop in the source game, but as they have to actually 'seek' the target that is hard to achieve as the other guy just runs, but making the opponent run is in itself tactically useful. In this game with auto hit you can't just have an 'I Win' weapon like that, if there is no counter tactic it is overpowered, if there is a counter tactic then it hardly ever happens.

Also, as with all multi turn arming weapons that rely on 1 turn of real crunch, you have to balance out the need to reload with how much damage they do when they fire. Having to reload in this game is a much bigger weakness than SFB/FC. In the source games you can still do everything else, or a good range of everything else whilst reloading. In ACTA it is your 1 and only special action. Your ability to defend or counter enemy tactics is much reduced, and therefore you are in a much worse situation whilst reloading. That should mean that your crunch delivery is pretty damn good. Photons are ok, they can do good, non-negatable damage with shield pass through and devastating crits when they fire (and range 15 is still decent). Plasma on the hand is very much subject to being shot down, so whilst its raw damage look good, the fact that a lot of that is going to be shot down makes it less useful. If you can't deliver significant damage and then have to reload you are on a loser.

Is plasma weak? Well as noted in a previous post, at a fleet level it can indeed overwhelm pretty much any other fleet in the perfect conditions. However, as noted above, for balance purposes that means there must be a counter to it, but once there is such a counter it becomes very hard to use. Any system that is that binary in effect is not going to work well in a game. Currently the range is the counter, and backed up by IDF if needed.


In short, I think ACTA has reduced seekers to such a simplistic system that it is very difficult to handle the heavy hitting plasma in a way that feels balanced, as the system is just too binary in nature to allow such potentially powerful weapons. Drones also suffer, in the opposite direction, as they have been given damage ratings that more or less reflect their raw damage in the base game whilst taking no account of the simplistic seeker mechanics and how many of the seeker defenses have been stripped out (or lack of ammo worries).

My current musings to handle this:

1) Increase plasma damage (by 1 dice all round).

Increased damage allows a single plasma ship to take on a single enemy ship better if it gets close enough, or to fire from 12" with the same firepower they now have at 8", 12-16" is still pretty 'meh' at least in the early phases.

2) make IDF automatic.

Note it would still be a special action. You still have to use your 1 SA to go defensive. Auto IDF would compensate for increased plasma effectiveness and also help stop drones being the wonder weapon they currently are.

3) Make IDF restricted to kill zone range. Knocking out drones or plasma from max range is 'odd'. It encourages fleets to operate in what looks more like a defensive formation. It also discourages the very long range drone fleets just scattering in front of plasma fleets, else they lose the IDF benefits against now better plasma.

4) Make plasma very long range (rather than boost damage). Range 24" would mean that 'close' is 12" and mid range is 18". That ensures that getting to plasma range is easier, especially with the current proposed drone hit roll. The 24" range may be long relative to the source games, but realistically only Plasma R is much use at that range, and given the long ranges on other weapons is not so unreasonable.
 
Another option that may add too much complication to the plasma situation might be to allow shotgun torpedoes and enveloping plasmas.

Shotguns, a G-Torp can fire 2 2 AD F torps at 2 targets in arc, an S-Torp fires 3, an R-Torp fires 5. Net result is more damage and more targets engaged. The additional targets will have to soak up some of their own phasers to defend themselves and IDF will be less attractive.

Enveloping torps in SFB have double the warhead strength, hitting all 6 shields more or less equally. We could simulate this by doubling their AD. They will be more useful at 12-16"; an S-torp which is currently a 4AD, is 3AD at 12", and 1AD at 16". An enveloping would be 8AD, 7 AD at 12", 4 AD at 16", which still demands respect. An R-torp which is 7AD would be 14AD, 13 AD at 12", and 10AD at 16"...

To balance either plasma option, it would probably be wise to have them incur a power drain to compensate.

I definitely agree that phasers are too powerful in this game. Reduce their range to 15, and remove accurate above range 5. Range 5 ought to be killzone if one is true to the source material. (range 6-8 is fair phaser damage range, but you can still miss, whereas range 0-5 you can't miss at all).
 
Option 4 is fascinating. Given the drone changes, that might be a real balancer. It essentially brings everyone even at 18" and might even help overcome the reload problem in that to stay close and pound the plasma users in the reload phase, you expose yourself to even closer fire from the reloaded survivors.
 
If looking at option 4, which is an interesting option to be fair, would the seeking modifications under review be included - Torps over 18" (16") would need to roll 5+ to hit ? This could work for the 'outrun' option, though i can only really see 'R's' being fired from over auto-hit range (and you could also get rid of the outrun effect on 'APTE', as outrunning a seeker fired at ranges of under 12", which you currently can, seems silly).
 
Captain Jonah said:
We have to wait for Matt to get back to us but to be honest he has his work cut out for him here. Balancing Kzinti without making them too weak to face Fed and Klingon’s without making the Gorn in particular and Plasma races in general so Vulnerable to Drones as to be all but useless.

I have _no_ worries about the Romulans :)
 
Keeper Nilbog said:
If looking at option 4, which is an interesting option to be fair, would the seeking modifications under review be included - Torps over 18" (16") would need to roll 5+ to hit ? This could work for the 'outrun' option, though i can only really see 'R's' being fired from over auto-hit range (and you could also get rid of the outrun effect on 'APTE', as outrunning a seeker fired at ranges of under 12", which you currently can, seems silly).

If this option is pursued I would say probaly no plasmas should stay autohit at all ranges. In SFB Plasma is self guided Drones are not.
 
Keeper Nilbog said:
If looking at option 4, which is an interesting option to be fair, would the seeking modifications under review be included - Torps over 18" (16") would need to roll 5+ to hit ? This could work for the 'outrun' option, though i can only really see 'R's' being fired from over auto-hit range (and you could also get rid of the outrun effect on 'APTE', as outrunning a seeker fired at ranges of under 12", which you currently can, seems silly).

If this option is pursued I would say probaly not, plasmas should stay autohit at all ranges. In SFB Plasma is self guided Drones are not.
 
msprange said:
Captain Jonah said:
We have to wait for Matt to get back to us but to be honest he has his work cut out for him here. Balancing Kzinti without making them too weak to face Fed and Klingon’s without making the Gorn in particular and Plasma races in general so Vulnerable to Drones as to be all but useless.

I have _no_ worries about the Romulans :)

Really, I worry about the nasty sneaky backstabbing little gits all the time, you never know when one will pop up and try to shoot you in the back

Anyway stop posting and go solve the problems we are all waiting on. Then after lunch you can solve Unified Field theory :lol: :wink:


Re Shotgunning the Plasmas.

Actually a bad idea. So I take my heavy weapon that requires a reload and use it to take down a few drones while using my Phasers to take down more drones.

This leaves me with no offensive firepower and since I'm not firing plasmas at the enemy they are free to fire every Phaser they have at me.


Enveloping. Ouch. Double the AD. In SFB/FC the doubled warhead hits all six shields so in fact does twice the damage spread across six times the targets.
It works when an enemy has a down shield facing away from you or when you want to sandpaper a targets entire shield strength for some reason.

Under ACTA rules we have one shield so doubling the AD means double the damage. A standard Plasma load of two S and two F would end up doing 24AD. With several supporting ships on IDF that can be reduced by half or two thirds but its going to hit with 8 AD or so which is going to take down a cruiser sized shield or wreck a damaged one. Then the second Plasma ship fires.


Daboss. Please no special rules like that. If one race can do them why do the Romulan’s not do it, or the Lyran who also spend a lot of time fighting the Kzinti, or even the Kzinti who spend a lot of time fighting themselves.
No special rules to fix the problems caused by the special rules that were intended to fix the original problems.


Re any idea for SA that change the plasmas. We have one SA a turn, between reloading and IDF speaking as a Gorn there isn’t a whole lot of room for using overloads or envelopers or any other SA.

Its IDF or APE trying to stay alive while deciding if its worth the risk of reloading or just running behind some terrain to reload out of sight.

As a number of people have mentioned. The ONLY defence against Drones is Phasers and supporting other ships takes IDF.

Firing means you need to reload which means no IDF which generally means you lose one more Gorn ship that turn that you would have if you had all gone IDF.


The solution is not new special actions or special rules or handwavium shields or Gorn only tactics or giving the Plasma races ECM modules that jam Drones on a 1-3. The solution has to be Drones themselves.

Fix the source problem and the symptoms go away. Wallpaper over the cracks and the problem cannot be seen but it will keep coming back with every new race and ship.

If it is not possible to balance Drones such that ALL races can face them without the Drone users being weakened to the point where they can no longer face other races then as a last resort the limits of ADBs agreement whereby ships cannot be changed could be looked at.

I don’t want to give up Plasma Fs on all my ships by fitting the D refit instead but if it’s the only option to crushing defeat against any Drone fleet then so be it. :roll:

Re increasing the overall range to 24. I'd be happy with that. It makes the optimal range 12" which is close to but shorter than the Flat tops (who have shield piercing anyway so stop moaning :roll: ), making them roll to hit over 18" so globaly all seeking weapons do this is also fine. As I have said before the rules need to cover all seeking weapons or we end up with rules for each seperate weapon and we are playing SFB again :shock: :wink:
 
Jonah,

"Re Shotgunning the Plasmas.

Actually a bad idea. So I take my heavy weapon that requires a reload and use it to take down a few drones while using my Phasers to take down more drones.

This leaves me with no offensive firepower and since I'm not firing plasmas at the enemy they are free to fire every Phaser they have at me. "

I was not saying use the plasma shotgun on drones. I was saying it can be used against enemy ships. Using it on a drone is wasteful overkill.

Having 2 or 3 Gorn cruisers shotgun their torps can result in 3 targets being hit with 16 or 24 F-Torps, divided by 3 targets = 5 or 8 x2 AD each... 10AD to 16 AD per target will get their attention, and should soak up all their phasers and still have some hit.

I think to balance it though, there should be the same restriction as reload in that the Gorn can't move more than 6" when using said shotgun or Enveloping torps.
 
From another place - which all seems like big stride forward to me

Matthew's latest playtest rule draft
=======
The three ship limit stays in the errata as is.

We delete all references to Lumbering.

The Seeking trait gets changed to this text;

Seeking: Seeking weapons must travel across space to their target but will doggedly pursue it until they impact and explode with deadly effect. A weapon with this trait will automatically hit a target within 18", without rolling any Attack Dice. At greater ranges, it will require Attack Dice rolls as normal.

With the damage spread around the entire target ship, no rolls are made to see if the weapon penetrates Shields.

8)
 
Da Boss said:
From another place - which all seems like big stride forward to me

Matthew's latest playtest rule draft
=======
The three ship limit stays in the errata as is.

We delete all references to Lumbering.

The Seeking trait gets changed to this text;

Seeking: Seeking weapons must travel across space to their target but will doggedly pursue it until they impact and explode with deadly effect. A weapon with this trait will automatically hit a target within 18", without rolling any Attack Dice. At greater ranges, it will require Attack Dice rolls as normal.

With the damage spread around the entire target ship, no rolls are made to see if the weapon penetrates Shields.

8)

It really seems to me like there needs to be a "drones" trait - by messing with the seeking weapon trait you are having do dance around not affecting plasma - plus if there are future seeking weapons are they going to be adversely affected by this?

Special rules that apply to drones that don't apply to plasma:
-Can be shot down by ADD
-Can be shot down by other drones
-One ship can only be targetted by 3 drone weapon systems
-Drones need to roll to hit at ranges over 18"
-Drones do not penetrate shields on a roll of 6

Also, I really hope they include in the rule when defensive fire against drones that need to roll to hit is executed. I'm assuming its after they roll to hit.


I understand the "3 ship" limit it really helps control when you have a fleet of ships that are each packing 4 drones - but its terrible for older fed ships that only have 1 drone each. Makes those weapon systems an absolute waste of time to even bother with.

Why not say "no more than 12 AD of drones may be fired at any one ship on a turn". That at least wouldn't hammer the old ships.

-Tim
 
I tried the Velociraptor ship out this weekend without lumbering. So much more appealing without it, as it has more Phasers than most Gorn ships.

I like these changes.
 
I think AdmiralGrafSpee makes a good point about there being a Drone Trait, or better yet both a Drone Trait and a Plasma Trait. In SFU seeking weapons tend to divide into plasma types and drone types, both tend to have very different characteristics. If ACTASF expands to include Omega, Early Years, X-Tech, Simulators, LMC, or Triangulum( :shock: etc. etc. etc. :lol: ), most of the later seeking weapons tend to divide along these two lines.
 
But some of those weapons do have aspects that cross over into another, or into a different type of weapon system altogether.

In the LMC, the only seeking weapon currently available in print is a type of plasma torpedo; but it could be argued that the way that drones work in ACtA:SF now wouldn't take much changing to cover the use of mass drivers (which are classed as a direct-fire weapon, but have a pseudo-seeking component in that they can be shot down immediately prior to impact).

And over in Omega, there's the Probr HEAT torpedo; a plasma-like weapon which, unlike an Alpha Octant plasma warhead, requires a seeking weapon control channel; which, in theory at least, could open it up to the same three-ship limit that drones currently have in this game.

So, even in the long run, the issue of how to model some of the more exotic seekers may not be down to a split between drone- and plasma-types, but in terms of how best to model each individual weapon system as and if/when it may arise.
 
With a handful of exceptions, all seeking weapons, drone or plasma, need a control channel on launch. Unless you are cloaking after launch, or not using the EW rules, it is usually in your best interest to keep control of the plasma as well.

The LMC Plasma-E is a weak two turn Plasma-F(in SFB, plasma is a three turn arming weapon).
 
Doesn't the "3 ship" thing bother anyone but me? I'm not against a limit on drone attacks, that's obviously the big balance issue, but I don't like it being # of ships. Why isn't it based on "number of drones"?

Ships don't kill - drones do!

Its not any harder to keep track of say 12AD of drones than it is to keep track of # of ships. Plus this way it keeps things under control for future ships (say like battleships which will have ungodly amounts of drones on them - or more hardcore drone ships than the DWD) - and doesn't really punish ships like the Fed CA which only has 1 drone.

-Tim
 
AdmiralGrafSpee said:
Doesn't the "3 ship" thing bother anyone but me? I'm not against a limit on drone attacks, that's obviously the big balance issue, but I don't like it being # of ships. Why isn't it based on "number of drones"?

Ships don't kill - drones do!

Its not any harder to keep track of say 12AD of drones than it is to keep track of # of ships. Plus this way it keeps things under control for future ships (say like battleships which will have ungodly amounts of drones on them - or more hardcore drone ships than the DWD) - and doesn't really punish ships like the Fed CA which only has 1 drone.

-Tim

I agree, it ought to be a max of 18 drone factors (allows for 6AD drone ships that might come along later like the D6D, etc). I could live with a limit of 12 drones. Otherwise it's really unfair to those 1-2 drone AD ships.
 
I like the 3 ship limit, it helps really distinguish which ships are drone ships and which ships happen to have drones. The limit just needs to be taken into account by the point system in use, 4 drones is worth more than 4 times as much as 1 drone.
 
gord314 said:
I like the 3 ship limit, it helps really distinguish which ships are drone ships and which ships happen to have drones. The limit just needs to be taken into account by the point system in use, 4 drones is worth more than 4 times as much as 1 drone.

Mongoose hasn't give us any indication that points will be modified. If anything the means by which they are trying to solve the current imbalances suggest the last thing they want to do is mess with the points.

-Tim
 
Luckily for me, we have a crack team of gamers and mathematicians working on developing our own pointing formula which does account for drones in a non-linear manner. Granted this doesn't help for tournaments or pick up games, but it will be a while before we have either of those in Southern California.
 
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