Glorantha is NOT Bronze Age

simonh

Mongoose
Ok, I've seen this fallacy repeated in a number of threads. Firefighting individual instances doesn't seem to be working, so I'd like to set the record streight and discuss this out in the opne, rather than as an off-topic discussion all over the forum.

Glorantha has never been described as a 'Bronze Age' world in any official publication. This falacy has arrisen from the fact that Bronze (or the Glroanthan equivalent of it) is the the most common metal, but that has nothing to do with technology or cultural development. It's purely a matter of access to resources.

I've seent he 'Bronze Age' fallacy many times over the years, even in profesional magazine reviews of Gloranthan products. It's a prenicious meme that has proved to be very hard to eradicate.

Many Gloranthan civilizations are far more advanced than any historical Bronze Age society. They are perfectly capable of smelting iron when they have access to it. The west of Glorantha (incidentaly, the west is actualy the setting for Greg Staffords earliest stories set in Glorantha from the 1960s) has advanced metalworking techniques capable of creating articulated iron plate armour. Crossbows, ballistae and even more advanced other mechanical aparatus are within the capability of a number of civilizations going back at least to the 2nd Age.

Yet some backwaters of Glorantha are still stuck in the neolithic. The Balazarings are a stone age hunter-gatherer society. Bear in mind that on earth there were stone age societies as recently as the last few centuries. Take the Americas untill smelting was introduced by Europeans. Many pockets of Africa and South-East Asia had no indigenous knowledge of metal working either. Also many stone age cultures such as the hsunchen in Glorantha have powerful magico-religious reasons that exclude some social and technological changes.
 
I've seent he 'Bronze Age' fallacy many times over the years, even in profesional magazine reviews of Gloranthan products. It's a prenicious meme that has proved to be very hard to eradicate.

Quoted from my copy of RQ2 (GW boxed version), main rulebook, page 5, Technological Base sub-section:

"Glorantha is a Bronze Age world. Bronze is common and can be mined directly from the bones of the gods who died in the Gods' War"

That seems to be a pretty definitive statement to me. Could it be where this pernicious meme has sprung from? :wink:
 
simonh said:
This falacy has arrisen from the fact that Bronze (or the Glroanthan equivalent of it) is the the most common metal, but that has nothing to do with technology or cultural development. It's purely a matter of access to resources.

Also remember that RQ2 featured a woman in Greek armour prominently on the cover, which doubtless coloured a few people's ideas about the game and setting.

Myles
 
I've always felt that the 'Bronze Age' label applied to Glorantha was more about 'look and feel' than 'technology level'. I've certainly never taken it to imply any degree of historical accuracy. It is a cube-shaped world with a dome for the sky, after all. :wink:

It was also a handy indicator that Glorantha was different from the typical 'medieval' fantasy setting.

Much of this is moot, of course, given that the new Gloranthan material will be Second Age. Quite a different feel again, really.

- Q

PS Glad Loz had his RQ2 rulebook to hand - I don't, but I knew they'd stated the Bronze Age thing explicitly in there. There's also a bit in the Appendices about 'such-and-such is RQ, such-and-such aint' that further differentiates from the 'medieval' setting to something 'earlier' and more brutal. Can anyone with the RQ2 book to hand take a look and see if they can quote it directly? It's like: 'Conan is; Lancelot isn't. Elric is; Hobbits aint' (paraphrasal all mine, of course!).
 
Even reading the old RQ stuff it was never Bronze age from the perception of technological level at least.
It was only Bronze age in the same way we could be living in an 'aluminum age',
Bronze (hu Metal) was the most common metal in use... which is about the long and short of it.

advanced metalworking techniques capable of creating articulated iron plate armour
Never really played much in the West other than a couple of adventures in Sog, always thought the majority armour was worked bronze (but as Greg kept saying in the old RQ stuff, metals aren't our terrestial metals.
Bronze is the Bones of Dead gods.
Iron is a dwarf construct .)
 
I get that parts of Glorantha could be called Bronze Age, sure. But especially in the Second Age, with stuff like the Machine City and the Zistorites, it's clearly not something that can be applied to the whole deal.

The Dragonlords would be technically beneath Bronze Age (or before it, whatever) given their whole "Ew, bones of dead gods!" thing.
 
Exubae said:
Bronze is the Bones of Dead gods.

Indeed. Which is kind of my point about 'look and feel'. It's a mythic setting. Historical terms are only indicators. Even the names of metals are only indicators.

Glorantha is a magical place. English is only a filter we apply to get some kind of grip on it.

- Q
 
From Page 8 of the boxed set for RQ III; Glorantha:
The human cultures of Glorantha are many thousands of years younger than those of our world. Humans are at a far earlier stage of civilization development than we are, and currently function at levels roughly equivalent our Neolithic to Bronze Age cultures. However the pervading presence of magic, combined with interaction with Elder Races, many of whom are far advanced than humanity, have created cultures with no equivalent.

It is a published fact.
 
Bits of Glorantha (3rd Age) are Bronze Age; bits are feudal; bits are stone age; bits are Ming Dynasty. Simon's certainly right in that regard.

But, just to split hairs, Simon said:
Glorantha has never been described as a 'Bronze Age' world in any official publication.
when, in fact, it has.

It terms of its overall development, it's moved away from the Bronze Age of RQ2 quite substantially - I don't think that can be disputed at all.

But really: does it actually matter?
 
Loz said:
Quoted from my copy of RQ2 (GW boxed version), main rulebook, page 5, Technological Base sub-section:

"Glorantha is a Bronze Age world. Bronze is common and can be mined directly from the bones of the gods who died in the Gods' War"

However, this is stated in the technological base section. The sociological base section states that is "an ancient period and early Dark Ages world. It has far more to do with Mesopotamia, ancient China, Hyboria, and Lankhmar than it does with medieval Europe, Le Mort D'Arthur, or the Carolingian Cycle."

Really though, both the technology and society depend on just where you are on Glorantha.
 
Mark Mohrfield said:
"an ancient period and early Dark Ages world. It has far more to do with Mesopotamia, ancient China, Hyboria, and Lankhmar than it does with medieval Europe, Le Mort D'Arthur, or the Carolingian Cycle."

Ooh, I think that was the bit I referred to above. :lol: That's pretty close to 'Conan is; Lancelot isn't. Elric is; Hobbits aint'. Good work, Q...

- Q, goes for a lie down
 
Quire said:
Ooh, I think that was the bit I referred to above. :lol: That's pretty close to 'Conan is; Lancelot isn't. Elric is; Hobbits aint'. Good work, Q...

The next line is "It's heroes are Conans, Grey Mousers and Rustums, not Lancelots, Percivals and Rolands."
Again, however, I think that there is room for all these types somewhere in Glorantha.
 
Mark Mohrfield said:
Loz said:
Quoted from my copy of RQ2 (GW boxed version), main rulebook, page 5, Technological Base sub-section:

"Glorantha is a Bronze Age world. Bronze is common and can be mined directly from the bones of the gods who died in the Gods' War"

However, this is stated in the technological base section. The sociological base section states that is "an ancient period and early Dark Ages world. It has far more to do with Mesopotamia, ancient China, Hyboria, and Lankhmar than it does with medieval Europe, Le Mort D'Arthur, or the Carolingian Cycle."

Really though, both the technology and society depend on just where you are on Glorantha.

And I quite agree. 100% agree, in fact. But Simon's original point was that no official publication for Glorantha had ever referred to the lozenge as 'Bronze Age', and he is wrong, because they have.

It's all pedantry, really, and the fact that it's a Friday...!
 
Mark Mohrfield said:
The next line is "It's heroes are Conans, Grey Mousers and Rustums, not Lancelots, Percivals and Rolands."
Again, however, I think that there is room for all these types somewhere in Glorantha.

Ah, I wasn't that far off from memory, then! At least I got Conan and Lancelot in context.

And I absolutely agree with the second part.

- Q
 
I think the idea was that in RQ2, Glorantha, at least what ingo was relased on it, was Bronze Age. Back then though, everything was warriten for Lunar Empire/Dragon Pass/Prax.

It wasn't until RQ3's Glorantha that we really started to see the more advanced cilivizations.

But all the RQ2 gave a strong Ancient Greek flavor to the game.
 
Quire said:
mthomason said:
+3, +5 vs Dragons.

Oops, wrong game!

:lol: Not according to some on the forum!

- Q

No, it is the wrong game. That is precisely the point. Such things belong in games with saving throws, initiative rolls, and human being that can take 20 point hits and still be functional.
 
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