Glorantha is NOT Bronze Age

[Quire]

That is precisely the point.

Exactly. Hence the emoticon.

- Q

 

[iamtim]

No, it is the wrong game. That is precisely the point. Such things belong in games with saving throws, initiative rolls, and human being that can take 20 point hits and still be functional.

I dunno....

Coming soon from Seraphim Guard: five magic weapons, a new "plain wrap" expansion for RuneQuest. This PDF includes such magical weapons as the +1 kukri, +2 vs. broos and chaos creatures and the vorpal sword of duck slaying. Great for use with Celestial half-Dragonnewt characters! Coming soon to a PDF dealer near you!

*blink, blink*

What?



(I'm just kidding...)

 

[RMS]

I think the idea was that in RQ2, Glorantha, at least what ingo was relased on it, was Bronze Age. Back then though, everything was warriten for Lunar Empire/Dragon Pass/Prax.

Simon's point is good though because neither the Lunar empire nor the Dragon Pass/Praxian cultures are Bronze Age, as that term is used on Earth. Most of those cultures are decidely post-Bronze Age in feel. (The others ironically, are pre-Bronze Age! )

It wasn't until RQ3's Glorantha that we really started to see the more advanced cilivizations.

But all the RQ2 gave a strong Ancient Greek flavor to the game.

You're correct about the Western and Eastern Civilizations not showing up until later and they both match Earth cultures that post-date the cultures of central Genertela. (Note: post-date =/= more advanced or more sophisticated.)

However, your last point is the clencher. The Ancient Greek civilization is Iron Age, not Bronze Age. The Bronze Age ends at about 1200 BCE in that region of the world, which is the time of the Trojan War, the Minoans, and the Myconaeans, but not the time of historical Greece which is decidely Iron Age. The Persian Empire vs. Greek City States is all Iron Age, as are the Peloponesian War, and Alexander's conquest of the Persian Empire is roughly at the end of the Iron Age. All of these are good descriptions of the developed parts of Glorantha, however Simon is correct that none of them are Bronze Age, but rather they are middle to late Iron Age. (Additional, reference here, if you use Rome as an example, it is considered post-Iron Age.)

 

[Lorgryt]

...however Simon is correct that none of them are Bronze Age, but rather they are middle to late Iron Age.

Actually, Simon's point was:

Glorantha has never been described as a 'Bronze Age' world in any official publication.

And the answer to that is:

From Page 8 of the boxed set for RQ III; Glorantha:

The human cultures of Glorantha are many thousands of years younger than those of our world. Humans are at a far earlier stage of civilization development than we are, and currently function at levels roughly equivalent our Neolithic to Bronze Age cultures. However the pervading presence of magic, combined with interaction with Elder Races, many of whom are far advanced than humanity, have created cultures with no equivalent.

It is a published fact.

 

[RMS]

...however Simon is correct that none of them are Bronze Age, but rather they are middle to late Iron Age.

Actually, Simon's point was:

Glorantha has never been described as a 'Bronze Age' world in any official publication.

Check the thread title. It's pretty obvious what Simon's point was, and pretty disingenuos to attempt to misrepresent it.

Simon missed (or had forgotten) that there are a couple of erroneous claims made in the published material. However, it's obvious from the beginning that the major Gloranthan cultures have never been Bronze Age, but most have been Iron Age or "newer". Even from just a technology point of view, no society that I'm aware of in Glorantha is close to being Bronze Age. (Some predate it, but most post date it by 500-1000 years, Earth time.)

Now, if you want to understand why this is so, feel free to ask away and we can have a constructive discussion about it.

 

[atgxtg]

I think the idea was that in RQ2, Glorantha, at least what ingo was relased on it, was Bronze Age. Back then though, everything was warriten for Lunar Empire/Dragon Pass/Prax.

Simon's point is good though because neither the Lunar empire nor the Dragon Pass/Praxian cultures are Bronze Age, as that term is used on Earth. Most of those cultures are decidely post-Bronze Age in feel. (The others ironically, are pre-Bronze Age! )

It wasn't until RQ3's Glorantha that we really started to see the more advanced cilivizations.

But all the RQ2 gave a strong Ancient Greek flavor to the game.

You're correct about the Western and Eastern Civilizations not showing up until later and they both match Earth cultures that post-date the cultures of central Genertela. (Note: post-date =/= more advanced or more sophisticated.)

However, your last point is the clencher. The Ancient Greek civilization is Iron Age, not Bronze Age. The Bronze Age ends at about 1200 BCE in that region of the world, which is the time of the Trojan War, the Minoans, and the Myconaeans, but not the time of historical Greece which is decidely Iron Age. The Persian Empire vs. Greek City States is all Iron Age, as are the Peloponesian War, and Alexander's conquest of the Persian Empire is roughly at the end of the Iron Age. All of these are good descriptions of the developed parts of Glorantha, however Simon is correct that none of them are Bronze Age, but rather they are middle to late Iron Age. (Additional, reference here, if you use Rome as an example, it is considered post-Iron Age.)

The similarities are striking. Both ancient Greece and Glorantha have cultures that used bronze predominantly, but iron was avalaible and used by the rich and powerful. Even iron be more valuable that gold. I suspect Bronze age was used as it gives a better feel for the setting to most people than dark age. Dark Age has me thinking of King Arthur, Vikings, Huns and Charles Martel. Bronze Age has me thining of great Heroes with patron gods.

 

[RMS]

The similarities are striking. Both ancient Greece and Glorantha have cultures that used bronze predominantly, but iron was avalaible and used by the rich and powerful. Even iron be more valuable that gold. I suspect Bronze age was used as it gives a better feel for the setting to most people than dark age. Dark Age has me thinking of King Arthur, Vikings, Huns and Charles Martel. Bronze Age has me thining of great Heroes with patron gods.

Dark Ages would have me thinking post-Roman too, but Iron Age would have me thinking Alexander, Pelopensian War, Early Roman Republic, etc. Bronze Age makes me think Assyrians, Egyptians, Troy, and Babylon.

The big thing for me here is that a Bronze Age army would have chariots, which don't exist anywhere (that I'm aware of) in Glorantha. Cavalry doesn't exist until the Iron Age. Heavy cavalry doesn't exist until the introduction of the stirrup in the 7th century AD in Europe. (It was most likely around a little earlier in the east.) Until that happens, cavalry's advantage is strictly in mobility. They cannot deal with heavily armed infantry. In RQ terms, without the stirrup there are no heavy swinging weapons that can be used from horseback, you cannot wear heavy armor on horseback, and certainly couldn't use your horses strength to augment damage.

The heavy armors shown in pictures of Glorantha (2nd edition cover) are clearly Iron Age to my eye. Now, that armor would have been bronze, while the weapons would have been iron, but it's Iron Age.

Another thing that stands out to me is that smith gods in Glorantha are big hulking guys, an image that only appears with working iron. Bronze is cast. There's some working done afterwords of course, but it's not like the continual beating that you do with iron to make something.

Note: I think maybe the issue is that a lot of people don't understand the differences in these two eras of history. My issue is that when I hear someone say Bronze Age it's misleading because I get a completely different picture than I get of Glorantha. I think playing with the metals in Glorantha to have bronze and iron work differently than in the real world adds to the confusions. (For example, in some places Gloranthan bronze appears to deteriate from oxidation. Red smiths appear to work bronze like you would terrestrial iron is another.)

 

[Loz]

Simon missed (or had forgotten) that there are a couple of erroneous claims made in the published material.

I'd hardly call the statements made in the 'officially published material' erroneous claims. They're setting a simple stake in the ground so that readers can gain a general handle on the general type of the culture and tech level Glorantha're representing. We're talking game books here; not masters degree-level history texts.

If you're going to make a bold, provocative statement such as 'Glorantha has NEVER been described as Bronze Age in any officially published source' (irrespective of whether or not Glorantha is or isn't Earth-analog Bronze Age, or some curious hybrid), when quite clearly and indisputably it has, then you should expect people to pipe-up and say 'well, no actually...' The fact is, Simon got his facts wrong. Knowing Simon, I'm surprised at that; they could've been so easily checked.

 

[Exubae]

The big thing for me here is that a Bronze Age army would have chariots, which don't exist anywhere (that I'm aware of) in Glorantha.

There where or had been chariots amongst the Theyalan/Orlanthi, as Mastakos the Mover is also refered to as Orlanths chariot driver... If my memory serves me correct (which it might not be doing), Mastakos used to provide Drive Chariot as a skill.
Ronance from the Paps was depicted as chariot god also.

In Third age Glorantha the use of Chariots may have gone out of fashion, and places such as Sartar probably aren't condusive to heavy chariot use and had probably been replaced by 'dragoon' style mounted infantry.

This is kind of backing up Simons point, but didn't GW use the 'Bronze Age' label in their advertising blurb in White Dwarf when they began their distribution of 2nd ed in the UK?

Paul

 

[Loz]

This is kind of backing up Simons point, but didn't GW use the 'Bronze Age' label in their advertising blurb in White Dwarf when they began their distribution of 2nd ed in the UK?

They probably did. And if so, it was because page 5 of the second edition rulebook (the rulebook! The same rulebook that most likely hooked all those people into Glorantha back in the late 70s and early 80s) says that, as a technological base, Glorantha is a Bronze-Age world. Bronze is the most common metal in use and circulation, so, from that POV, there's absolutely nothing wrong with the statement. It provides a very general, socio-historical point of reference allowing people who know a little about ancient cultures to formulate a high-level idea of what the world is like.

We can split hairs for ever over whether or not Glorantha is or isn't Bronze Age in the way Earth had a Bronze Age. The argument's pretty pointless really, because Glorantha's an invented world and a crucible for taking whatever cultural or mythical analogs you like and sitting them side-by-side in a place ripe for adventure and storytelling.

Shouldn't this debate be conducted on the dedicated Gloranthan forums? They love debating this kind of stuff...

 

[Lorgryt]

...however Simon is correct that none of them are Bronze Age, but rather they are middle to late Iron Age.

Actually, Simon's point was:

Glorantha has never been described as a 'Bronze Age' world in any official publication.

Check the thread title. It's pretty obvious what Simon's point was, and pretty disingenuos to attempt to misrepresent it.

The tread title is not his thesis. And I don't feel it is dishonest, deceitful, hypocritical, or insincere to point out the fallacy of the thread's thesis as being mistaken. If he wanted to argue that the cultures are not built on a Bronze Age model I would have agreed with him... except for Sartar (the main culture presented in all the RQs and HQ/HWs up till MRQ). It would seem to be built on a Bronze Age model of Western Europe. That the culture survived unto the Iron Age is true, but no one could claim that iron was introduced to the Bretons and boom... huts, farming, clans, and blue painted warriors! (Sartar was built on a Bronze Age Breton model as it was understood in the mid to late 1970s when the game was first published.)

However, his argument (thesis) is that it has never been described as Bronze age when it has been described (no matter how erroneously in someone’s opinion (and no matter how much I might agree)) as being just that in every version of the game.


Oh, RMS, calling me a liar because I don’t agree with you, no matter how coyly worded or polite, is a pointless endeavor. It will always bring a response, and will likely lead to pointless bickering.

 

[Exubae]

We can split hairs for ever over whether or not Glorantha is or isn't Bronze Age in the way Earth had a Bronze Age. The argument's pretty pointless really,

Agreed...
Found an old White Dwarf Mag in my board, No. 32 Aug 1982;
Back then the softback 2nd ed RQ, retailed in the UK for £5.95
or £8.95 if you bought the box set (incl. dice, BRP booklet, character sheets, and the Apple lane scenarios.)

Rq figures where £3.95 a box, and you got foam inlay to stop them chipping when you finally managed to get them painted... Prefer the New Ducks though (but the packaging sucks big time).

Well thats inflation for you

Paul

 

[Mark Mohrfield]

We can split hairs for ever over whether or not Glorantha is or isn't Bronze Age in the way Earth had a Bronze Age. The argument's pretty pointless really, because Glorantha's an invented world and a crucible for taking whatever cultural or mythical analogs you like and sitting them side-by-side in a place ripe for adventure and storytelling.

I wouldn't call it pointless. Calling glorantha "bronze age" really is somewhat misleading, after all. I for one would have prefered that the 2nd ed. rulebook had said something like "Despite the predominance of a metal called "bronze", Glorantha mainly resembles the ancient world during the iron age", which would have lead to much less confusion.

 

[King Amenjar]

But nevertheless, there's no getting around the fact that Page 5 of the rulebook plainly says 'Glorantha is a Bronze Age world'. The next section talks about Mesopotamia and Lankhmar and says it has less to do with mediaeval types scenarios - of course, this all had to change when YACAPE thinking crept in and mediaeval Europe was assigned to Ralios.

 

[Loz]

I wouldn't call it pointless. Calling glorantha "bronze age" really is somewhat misleading, after all. I for one would have prefered that the 2nd ed. rulebook had said something like "Despite the predominance of a metal called "bronze", Glorantha mainly resembles the ancient world during the iron age", which would have lead to much less confusion.

True as that may be (and as accurate and eloquent a description as you've provided, Mark), you cannot change the RQ2 rulebook to suit your own understanding or take on how Glorantha should be. Facts are facts and they can't be altered or ignored (well, they can be, but usually to some form of detriment). Glorantha was described as a Bronze Age world in both the RQ2 and RQ3 rules. It's only misleading if you're deeply knowledgable about the society and culture of the real Bronze Age and are looking to replicate that kind of detail in your campaign. For most people, the phrase Bronze Age conjours a particular image and cultural reference point from which to work - and in that respect the statement is perfectly valid.

Hair-splitting at its very best!

 

[Mark Mohrfield]

True as that may be (and as accurate and eloquent a description as you've provided, Mark), you cannot change the RQ2 rulebook to suit your own understanding or take on how Glorantha should be. Facts are facts and they can't be altered or ignored (well, they can be, but usually to some form of detriment).

But one of the facts is that the description, while certainly present, is inaccurate.

Glorantha was described as a Bronze Age world in both the RQ2 and RQ3 rules. It's only misleading if you're deeply knowledgable about the society and culture of the real Bronze Age and are looking to replicate that kind of detail in your campaign.

I can't claim I'm particularly knowledgable about the period, but i still find the description misleading.

For most people, the phrase Bronze Age conjours a particular image and cultural reference point from which to work - and in that respect the statement is perfectly valid.

Hair-splitting at its very best!

What image would that be?

 

[Loz]

But one of the facts is that the description, while certainly present, is inaccurate.

Not disputing it's accuracy. Check back through everything I've been saying in this thread: Glorantha is a mish-mash; a hotch-potch. A bit of Bronze Age, a bit of Romano-Celtic; a bit of Imperial Chinese... Simon's assertion - and the source of this whole, pointless thread - was that Glorantha had never been described as Bronze Age in any officially published source. The accuracy of the fact doesn't negate its existence, or the fact that Simon should have checked before making his assertion.

Bronze Age, to me, conjours an image of clan/tribal societies, working simple metals. Nothing deep; nothing especially accurate either - but when someone says to me Bronze Age I can understand the context. Ditto stone age, or Roman, or any other age you want to split hairs over. I'm sure it conjours up pretty much the same kind of image for most people - and probably the reason it was used by the authors of RQ2 (who, by the way, weren't exactly historical slouches, from what I know of Steve Perrin and Ray Turney).

But, as I've already said: does it really - no, I mean it - really matter? At all?

 

[King Amenjar]

People seem to think "Bronze Age" means one short step above people in skins living in caves and saying, "Ugg!". In the Bronze Age, Minoans lived in cities with running water, the Code of Hammurabi was written, the Pharaoh Akhenaton invented a new religion, rulers of empires wrote diplomatic correspondences with each other, the Hittites created a many faceted admininstration which included officials who checked the ballast on merchant ships.

 

[RMS]

However, his argument (thesis) is that it has never been described as Bronze age when it has been described (no matter how erroneously in someone’s opinion (and no matter how much I might agree)) as being just that in every version of the game.

That was one argument, amongst several, that was used to describe the main point (thesis): that Glorantha is not (and has never been) Bronze Age. It was an erroneous argument, and I would completely agree that it didn't help his case. I also would have never said anything if you had stayed with pointing out that factual error. However, the fact remains that it was not the main point and that was pretty obvious. He has several other arguments he uses to make his point in the first post and no one, including you, has disputed any of those; most likely because they're correct. If you still don't believe me, go read the entire first post again.

Oh, RMS, calling me a liar because I don’t agree with you, no matter how coyly worded or polite, is a pointless endeavor. It will always bring a response, and will likely lead to pointless bickering.

I have no problem with you disagreeing with me. I do have a problem with you misrepesenting what someone else said in an attempt to prove your own point. To be fair, you are not the only one making this argument, but you are the only one who did in response to me. I did not and would not call you a liar because that would presume that I knew your intent, which I do not claim. I suggest we let this drop because there is no where to go with it from here and I do not participate in "pointless bickering". Also, there is nothing personal here, so I will happily discuss with you anything you want about RQ rules (any version) or Glorantha, including whether it's fair to refer to it as Bronze Age or not.

 

[RMS]

The big thing for me here is that a Bronze Age army would have chariots, which don't exist anywhere (that I'm aware of) in Glorantha.

There where or had been chariots amongst the Theyalan/Orlanthi, as Mastakos the Mover is also refered to as Orlanths chariot driver... If my memory serves me correct (which it might not be doing), Mastakos used to provide Drive Chariot as a skill.

I wondered if anyone would point out Mastakos when I posted that. It's a reasonable argument, and one I wouldn't disagree on. I did always wonder about the Drive Chariot skill since no one has chariots around in 3rd Age Glorantha.