War is physics, small arms are responsible for 2-3% of casualties, over 50% is from HE, which has risen in that modern warfare seems to be to just drive about in armored trucks and get hit by IED's. In the future, the fact that you'll have spacecraft to pelt the world from above with any objects of your choosing ... conventional forces are more useful in a limited engagement. A big suit of armor, or giant stompy robot, seem to have all the limitations of tanks: can't walk down a hallway, too heavy for floors, etc; w/o many of the advantages. It would be weird to think of the e-tool it would need. Flying can be of dubious value, esp considering a combat environment that has lasers as ADA.
Giant suit of Battledress: 6 meters tall!
- Thread starter Tom Kalbfus
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Tom Kalbfus
Mongoose
Jeraa said:
A GM could design a spaceship with corridors wide enough and tall enough to accomodate such a robot and give the players a big surprise! What if there were aliens that were 6 meters tall? If you could have dinosaurs that big, why not intelligent technological aliens? And perhaps the Imperium has their diplomats walking around in powered suits like that so they don't get stepped on! That would be a great use for them! What do you think of that?
A
Anonymous
Guest
and any one wishing to design a starship that could be defend against boarders would have murder holes and make things really difficult to manoeuvre thru, that and centralised control of the environment (grav plates cranked up to 11 and whatever gas or lack of you want to put thru the air con).
Everything you can design, someone else can work a counter for, it all comes down to what tickles your fancy and how you and your players want the game to be.
It's going to be interesting to see how that USN shipborne laser works out and if so, how soon they can shrink it down to use on tanks.
Everything you can design, someone else can work a counter for, it all comes down to what tickles your fancy and how you and your players want the game to be.
It's going to be interesting to see how that USN shipborne laser works out and if so, how soon they can shrink it down to use on tanks.
Reynard
Emperor Mongoose
I see walkers as an intermediary between ground vehicles and grav vehicles. They have more terrain flexibility that wheel, track and hover but otherwise not much different in function and capacity. A grav vehicle will, literally run circles around a walker.
Once a grav vehicle appears, replacing ground, water and air vehicles, it's all over. For the most part, grav trumps in versatility. A grav AFV can be deployed to a theater of war under it's own power in High Mode where it can fight other grav vehicles plus aircraft and have an advantage of armor against aircraft weapons. Once in the war zone they drop to Terrain Following Mode and Nape of the Earth speeds and become difficult to track and hit. In combat they drop to ground level and use terrain as any ground AVF for defense. They also have the abilities of VTOL units. No ground vehicle can do a pop-up.
If you build a grav unit and a walker to comparable specs, I place better odds on the GAVF.
In my opinion, a walker can serve best as part of infantry support giving armor, firepower and flexibility to the roles of infantry rooting our opposition behind the front battle line that tanks can't do. They would serve as choppers do today going in as a squad for support functions. They would be excellent for urban warfare. They do have the advantage of built-in high ground.
This would make assault ships have troops and WFVs aboard acting as a team once planetside.
Once a grav vehicle appears, replacing ground, water and air vehicles, it's all over. For the most part, grav trumps in versatility. A grav AFV can be deployed to a theater of war under it's own power in High Mode where it can fight other grav vehicles plus aircraft and have an advantage of armor against aircraft weapons. Once in the war zone they drop to Terrain Following Mode and Nape of the Earth speeds and become difficult to track and hit. In combat they drop to ground level and use terrain as any ground AVF for defense. They also have the abilities of VTOL units. No ground vehicle can do a pop-up.
If you build a grav unit and a walker to comparable specs, I place better odds on the GAVF.
In my opinion, a walker can serve best as part of infantry support giving armor, firepower and flexibility to the roles of infantry rooting our opposition behind the front battle line that tanks can't do. They would serve as choppers do today going in as a squad for support functions. They would be excellent for urban warfare. They do have the advantage of built-in high ground.
This would make assault ships have troops and WFVs aboard acting as a team once planetside.
Walkers, like in Avatar, I can see for low tech, pre-grav forces. They are only about half the size, and probably will be four legged. Probably drones too, but that's another discussion, what do people do in the future?
The Army's ADA branch would love to have it on an AFV chassis, but not only does it lack a clear mission, the vehicles the ADA did have, have been hijacked back to the infantry. We won't talk about Sgt. York. :mrgreen:
hiro said:
The Army's ADA branch would love to have it on an AFV chassis, but not only does it lack a clear mission, the vehicles the ADA did have, have been hijacked back to the infantry. We won't talk about Sgt. York. :mrgreen:
Reynard
Emperor Mongoose
Had a chance to sit and study the vehicle examples in The Vehicle Handbook getting side by side comparisons on similar designs for tracked, walker and grav AFVs. Tracked doesn't stand a chance for the most part. The G-tank and the Scorpion walker seem the best comparison but the Chimera has comparative traits..
Best breakdown shows the walkers have higher damage but at much shorter range and their armor is much less than the G-tank. Hull is structure is equal or lower. Speed beats the G-tank by 150% but range is far less and they are limited to ground travel. Costs are 11% and 20% so you can have many more but their volumes are 232% and 450% that of the tank. Not so effective for ship storage. My biggest issue for the Scorpion and Chimera is height, 4 stories and 7 stories tall! They really can't enjoy the Core book cover rules. Both track and grav tanks are 3m tall at worst. Grav tanks can plink a walker's relatively lousy armor way beyond the range of the Plasma A and survive, even while at height, if a walker could get within the Plasma's range.
This is why the use of walkers seem a matter of choice by a military mostly for budget and probably more suited to planetary defense.
Best breakdown shows the walkers have higher damage but at much shorter range and their armor is much less than the G-tank. Hull is structure is equal or lower. Speed beats the G-tank by 150% but range is far less and they are limited to ground travel. Costs are 11% and 20% so you can have many more but their volumes are 232% and 450% that of the tank. Not so effective for ship storage. My biggest issue for the Scorpion and Chimera is height, 4 stories and 7 stories tall! They really can't enjoy the Core book cover rules. Both track and grav tanks are 3m tall at worst. Grav tanks can plink a walker's relatively lousy armor way beyond the range of the Plasma A and survive, even while at height, if a walker could get within the Plasma's range.
This is why the use of walkers seem a matter of choice by a military mostly for budget and probably more suited to planetary defense.
Or are people still basing their posts on the limited options available in the regular Traveller books. Which I say again are limited because it's based on 70's sci-fi tropes that predated mecha & japanese anime concepts. But are also limited by being not very imaginative slot by numbers pseudo engineery excel spreadsheet sci-fi design?
While I'm here, let me heartily recommend 13Mann's supplement Robots.
While I'm here, let me heartily recommend 13Mann's supplement Robots.
Reynard
Emperor Mongoose
Using 80s anime mecha tropes is not Traveller. As a matter of fact, mecha go into the realm of science fantasty with huge bots able to move as if just a large scale human while Traveller treats them like tanks and vehicles. I doubt a seven story Traveller walker is dropping prone and shooting like some human rifleman. I think they become more like a turtle that needs time to right itself and stand up.
And it's obvious we're talking about two different thing in the same topic.
And it's obvious we're talking about two different thing in the same topic.
"Using 80s anime mecha tropes is not Traveller"
Yeah I don't think there's a cannon police for Traveller. Especially when they make such an effort to have people make their own YTUs. So sorry, not recognizing your authority here.
"mecha go into the realm of science fantasty"
Uh huh, you realize your comparing this to the "official" traveller universe with:
1) Space emperors("Star Wars! Nothing but Star Wars Hey!") Basically, swashbuckling space fantasy.
2) Thousand year old empires which don't change at all because they wanted to keep it familiar to current players.
3) AGE OF SAIL.
" I doubt a seven story Traveller walker is dropping prone and shooting like some human rifleman."
Yeah, because modern tanks are made of material which can't handle it. But it's not like future tech couldn't create strong light flexible material. Like what the space elevator would have to made out of. Carbon fiber, new alloys, etc.
So yeah, I'm again disputing that it would only work in fantasy.
"And it's obvious we're talking about two different thing in the same topic."
And that doesn't make mine any less plausible.
Yeah I don't think there's a cannon police for Traveller. Especially when they make such an effort to have people make their own YTUs. So sorry, not recognizing your authority here.
"mecha go into the realm of science fantasty"
Uh huh, you realize your comparing this to the "official" traveller universe with:
1) Space emperors("Star Wars! Nothing but Star Wars Hey!") Basically, swashbuckling space fantasy.
2) Thousand year old empires which don't change at all because they wanted to keep it familiar to current players.
3) AGE OF SAIL.
" I doubt a seven story Traveller walker is dropping prone and shooting like some human rifleman."
Yeah, because modern tanks are made of material which can't handle it. But it's not like future tech couldn't create strong light flexible material. Like what the space elevator would have to made out of. Carbon fiber, new alloys, etc.
So yeah, I'm again disputing that it would only work in fantasy.
"And it's obvious we're talking about two different thing in the same topic."
And that doesn't make mine any less plausible.
GypsyComet
Emperor Mongoose
Tikon2000 said:
Cannons are for soldiers.
Canon is for Writers.
Past material that is still considered Canon has included legged vehicles, but they are more along the lines of Star Wars' AT-ST and AT-TE, not Mobile Suit Gundam.
In the privacy of your own Traveller campaign, do as you like.
Tom Kalbfus
Mongoose
Reynard said:
So I'm guessing you would not see giant walker robots like this in the OTU, unless they were built by an independently wealthy mad scientist for his own amusement, or perhaps to show off to his friends. It is built out of 5 smaller lion robots with people inside, I don't know what the four other lion robot Pilots do when their mechanical cats are part of the larger Voltron Walker I suppose if someone ever built a robot like this in the OTU, it would get a lot of laughs from the opponents before they blasted it with cannon fire.
Reynard
Emperor Mongoose
Personally, I see most walkers looking like normal vehicles build around utility - form fit function. They're purpose built.That doesn't mean dilettantes and wealthy sport enthusiasts won't trick out walkers with flash and tri-holo appeal but that's gonna cost big. Nobody puts racing stripes or retro fins on an AFV grav tank... well maybe the aslan get a little artistic. Even they know better than spend money on beast motif gun platforms.
To me, designs from Robot Jox and Pacific Rim, even Battle Tech, are more 'realistic'. Again it's personal choice and seems to fit the descriptions I see in The Vehicle Handbook.
To me, designs from Robot Jox and Pacific Rim, even Battle Tech, are more 'realistic'. Again it's personal choice and seems to fit the descriptions I see in The Vehicle Handbook.
Tom Kalbfus
Mongoose
I wonder why Voltron carries a giant sword though. Judging from the picture and the fact that humans have to fit into those Robot Cats, assume each one is 6 meters long at least, each cat makes a limb and one cat makes the torso, I think Voltron is maybe 12 to 20 meters tall. So what do you think would happen if it swung its sword at a grav tank?
Reynard
Emperor Mongoose
1) A 20 meter tall robot is going to be noticed a long way off. To get caught at melee range means the vehicle is either unmanned or disabled.
2) Need to know how much damage that sword can do. A standard grave tank has 80 armor. Might survive long enough to take off and shoot back. 120mm gauss cannon also packs a punch.
Walkers have better ground speed if balanced. The Voltron could give chase if the G-tank stays low but that would be in. Climb out of sword range or as much as 5-25km away. A ground tank would fare far worst for armor, speed and firepower.
2) Need to know how much damage that sword can do. A standard grave tank has 80 armor. Might survive long enough to take off and shoot back. 120mm gauss cannon also packs a punch.
Walkers have better ground speed if balanced. The Voltron could give chase if the G-tank stays low but that would be in. Climb out of sword range or as much as 5-25km away. A ground tank would fare far worst for armor, speed and firepower.
Tom Kalbfus
Mongoose
I don't really know why they would make robots with teeth, I'm referring to the cats.
GypsyComet
Emperor Mongoose
The five Lions do all have articulated jaws. Despite being a late example of the genre, that show is a classic "God Machine" show in many ways. Every one of the five, as well as the combined Voltron, has plot-reliant tricks, abilities that make no mechanical sense, and of course a resonance to some aspect of folklore or myth. Temple Guardian Foo Lions in this case.
The Mongoose system could probably handle the shows (there are two of them) just fine, though I would probably use the starship damage system for the Lions.
Inserting the Voltron/Lotor war into the middle of the Imperium setting, on the other hand, would probably have a ripple effect that would demolish the setting. Reshaping the setting around these assumptions and events might be fun, but the Space Opera default of Traveller would probably be a better fit with Gundam, Macross, or one of the other Military Mecha shows instead of the God Robot shows.
The Mongoose system could probably handle the shows (there are two of them) just fine, though I would probably use the starship damage system for the Lions.
Inserting the Voltron/Lotor war into the middle of the Imperium setting, on the other hand, would probably have a ripple effect that would demolish the setting. Reshaping the setting around these assumptions and events might be fun, but the Space Opera default of Traveller would probably be a better fit with Gundam, Macross, or one of the other Military Mecha shows instead of the God Robot shows.
Tom Kalbfus
Mongoose
Naw, I just saying what if you built a robot that looked like Voltron with the best of tech level 15 materials available in the OTU. Maybe some excentric roboticist came across an old terran document about the Voltron cartoon, and the roboticist, who was independently wealthy scratched his head and said, "Well maybe I could build something like that. I don't know about it having all of its abilities, and it probably wouldn't make a good war machine, but heck, I'll build it anyway just for fun!"GypsyComet said:
It doesn't exist in the cartoonish universe of Voltron, it exists in the more realistic universe of Traveller OTU, its just that some crazy scientist decided to build it. What sort of issues do you think he might come across if he decided to build it? I think the pilots manning the legs and arms lions wouldn't be very happy as the giant robot walked around. They would be just sitting around in their cocoons waiting for their various lions to detach so they could control them, and also the experience of being in a leg lion while attached to the giant Voltron robot might be kind of nauseating as it walks around. The guy in the torso lion would probably fare the best. You wouldn't want to be in an arm lion when Voltron throws a punch or swings a sword! the cartoon didn't deal with these issues, but in Traveller OTU, you'd have to deal with them, or make the robot completely autonomous.
