"Generic" Aliens vs. "Generic" Fantasy C

[dmccoy1693]

One problem with "generic" aliens is that dwarves, elves etc. are fairly common in a lot of fantasy works...but aliens tend to differ from author to author. But it could be done, I suppose.

I didn't want to clutter up the playtest thread anymore with this discussion so I started this thread.

To recap for those joining now, the discussion is about should the Traveller aliens be OGC or IP? Two valid positions:
-The aliens are Traveller IP and therefore should be closed content, vs
-Traveller without the standard aliens effectively makes the game Serenity or similar human-only Scifi and removes the Traveller-ness from Traveller, preventing a 3rd party company from making adventures that can be used in Traveller's universe even if they are not officially apart of the universe.

Now to where we left off: Say Wizards released the SRD without Elves and Dwarves being open content, Goodman could release an adventure that used Elves since elves are classical fantasy, but they'd have to either differenciate them somehow or run the risk of being sued. Remember, WotC may not own the name "elves" but they own their own take on "elves."

So Goodman releases an adventure that assumes 3-inch high elves that work at the north pole. That's not going to work in anyone's D&D game.

As I stated in the playtest thread, RuneQuest's IP includes Ducks and Broo, but Mongoose released them as OGL since they are apart of what makes RuneQuest RuneQuest. I imagine that Mongoose will do similar with the Traveller aliens.

 

[pasuuli]

Since the playtest file has Traveller aliens included, I'll assume the Third Imperium setting will have Traveller aliens.

But since games like Starship Troopers have different aliens, I'll assume that SST setting content will have their own aliens.

Thus open game content will have to have its own aliens. To use Traveller aliens requires a Traveller license?

 

[dmccoy1693]

But since games like Starship Troopers have different aliens, I'll assume that SST setting content will have their own aliens.

That's the beauty of the OGL, you can keep, ignore, or modify what you wish from the SRD. SST can completely ignore everything except for the combat and skill system. Meanwhile, the 3rd Imperium can use everything from the SRD.

 

[EDG]

The stuff in the Traveller playtest isn't supposed to be Charted Space, right? It's the main Traveller rulebook that all the SF settings are going to be using.

So how can the playtest document for the SF Rules even mention the Charted Space (or whatever you want to call it) aliens in it at all? They're very clearly specific to IP of Charted Space, so the only place they should be mentioned is in the Charted Space setting book isn't it?

It seems to me that you're confusing "Traveller" with "Charted Space" - if the corebook doesn't mention the Charted Space aliens then it's not "Traveller without the aliens", they're just not in the core rules that all the games share is all. If the Charted Space setting book didn't mention them, then you'd be entitled to complain about it being a human-only "Serenity" like setting that isn't what Charted Space should be. But that's not what's being discussed here.

But IMO the Charted Space aliens absolutely should not be OGC, and I'd bet that Marc Miller would throw a fit if he became aware of that possibility being on the cards given how closely he guards his IP. And as a general point, anything specific to a given setting should be locked into its own setting book.

Problem is, aliens have to be specific to the setting. The D&D OGL can have generic elves, dwarves etc, but they're not going to have the elves that are specific to settings like Dark Sun, or Forgotten Realms because those are specific IPs.

What you can do in the Traveller corebook is have generic aliens like "heavy worlder human" or "light worlder human" or "honourable warrior alien" or "psionic human" or whatever that can be slotted into other settings. But you wouldn't be able to put say, Klingons (even though they're part of the "honourable warrior alien" set) or the Zhodani (even though they're part of the "psionic human" set) because they're part of specific IPs. And most of the aliens in Traveller are just too unique to the game to be able to genericise anyway (how many settings have "manipulative hypercurious ambulatory starfish" or "genocidal militant psychopath vegetarian" exactly?)

 

[AKAramis]

Considering samurai cat-peoples, wolf-pack dog-peoples, uplifted dolphins, orangutans, and chimps, and elves-in-space (darrians) are all common tropes in Sci-Fi gaming....

they would definitely fit in the core book.

And EDG: Mongoose's past/present MO is to publish revised corebook for each of their commercial settings, so each setting has a playable corebook, putting Traveller Aliens in the main core is probably not a big issue, they can be product identity in whole or in part, and at least some belong in the SRD, and the Traveller main rulebook is unlikely to be needed to run TTL-B5 nor TTL-JudgeDredd.

 

[EDG]

Considering samurai cat-peoples, wolf-pack dog-peoples, uplifted dolphins, orangutans, and chimps, and elves-in-space (darrians) are all common tropes in Sci-Fi gaming....

they would definitely fit in the core book.

If you can genericise them, sure. But then uplifted animals (other than the Vargr) have never really been a big part of the Charted Space setting so they're not really tied to it. But it seems somewhat sneaky to have a generic race of matriarchal samurai cat-people which are Aslan in all but name.

And EDG: Mongoose's past/present MO is to publish revised corebook for each of their commercial settings, so each setting has a playable corebook, putting Traveller Aliens in the main core is probably not a big issue, they can be product identity in whole or in part, and at least some belong in the SRD, and the Traveller main rulebook is unlikely to be needed to run TTL-B5 nor TTL-JudgeDredd.

My impression was that they were going to convert at least some of their other SF settings to the Traveller rules.

 

[dmccoy1693]

Question: If they locked the aliens in the 3rd Imperium setting, why would Mongoose call the game Traveller? They could call it "Generic SciFi System" and call the setting Traveller.

Traveller was originally suppose to be a generic scifi game that you could make your own setting from. Did the aliens appear before the first mention of the 3rd Imperium? My understanding is that the 3rd imperium first appeared in Book 8 while the aliens appeared earlier (but I could be wrong). This would indicate that Miller initially intended the aliens to be generic.

 

[dmccoy1693]

Problem is, aliens have to be specific to the setting. The D&D OGL can have generic elves, dwarves etc, but they're not going to have the elves that are specific to settings like Dark Sun, or Forgotten Realms because those are specific IPs.

There's a 1001 different takes on elves in the world. If Wizards locked their own specific take on elves behind IP (which they could have done) then no one would be able to play them. Elves in DragonLance, Forgotten Realms, Dark Sun, and Ravenloft all make the assumption that High Elves are the specific take from Greyhawk. They each have their own individual incarnations of elves, but they all have a common base of them all being human size, good looking and sucky fighters.

So for all tense and purposes, Races of Greyhawk were released as OGC. I suspect similar will be done with Traveller.

 

[EDG]

Question: If they locked the aliens in the 3rd Imperium setting, why would Mongoose call the game Traveller? They could call it "Generic SciFi System" and call the setting Traveller.

Traveller was originally suppose to be a generic scifi game that you could make your own setting from.

Right. Which is what Mongoose are doing now.

Traveller was never supposed to be just the Charted Space setting, it evolved into it as time went on. Now Mongoose are (presumably) trying to separate the rules and the setting back out from eachother again. So ideally:

"Traveller" = generic SF rules system
"Charted Space" = specific Third Imperium setting

Did the aliens appear before the first mention of the 3rd Imperium? My understanding is that the 3rd imperium first appeared in Book 8 while the aliens appeared earlier (but I could be wrong).

Dunno. I thought they got first mentioned in the Library Data supplements?

 

[dmccoy1693]

"Traveller" = generic SF rules system
"Charted Space" = specific Third Imperium setting

RuneQuest is probably a better comparision then D&D is. Ducks and Broo are RuneQuest specific. But Mongoose released them as OGC since they help to make RuneQuest ... well, RuneQuest. Now a 3rd party company can come up with their own setting that uses Ducks and Broo.

I suspect Mongoose will do similar: Races - OGC, Specific persons, places, and things - IP. This seperates the general concept of the races available for anyone to make something that is Traveller-flavored while keeping the 3rd imperium firmly locked away inside IP.

 

[rkhigdon]

Well I'm not adverse to the aliens being in the core book, but I'd really prefer that they be detailed in other products. I just don't find the brief method mentioned in the playtest document satisfying. I'd much rather that each race be given a more prominent spotlight with write-ups for the cultures. I'd like to see differing Life Events tables for the individual species, as well as differing career tables for those professions that might differ greatly from the human norm.

 

[AKAramis]

If you can genericise them, sure. But then uplifted animals (other than the Vargr) have never really been a big part of the Charted Space setting so they're not really tied to it. But it seems somewhat sneaky to have a generic race of matriarchal samurai cat-people which are Aslan in all but name.

We have a race of touchy cat people in the open content of T20... sure, they're nameless, and their culture isn't described, but the physical description and stats are open content.

My impression was that they were going to convert at least some of their other SF settings to the Traveller rules.

Yes. And if they follow their form (as exhibited with RQ/Elric/etc) the Traveller based B5 will be a standalone book with about 90%+ rules overlap, and no setting overlap.

The generic part of MRQ is still VERY RQ and strongly implies Glorantha, however descriptions of the why behind those entries in MRQ is in Gloratha: The Second Age

ou seem to be thinking a GURPS model; think instead a Powered by GURPS model.